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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How to use normal studio flashes with Epic?

Matin, I can't tell how some of these work, If in doubt, perhaps check with the company who sold it. Or perhaps RED can tell you if any voltage used for the trigger is without danger. I'm not a specialist in flash light, but not to mention it seemed weird to me. I guess if you use a studio flash, you might use a remote trigger anyway, right?

Ulf, nice link, I hope that makes conscious about the subject. The 250V you mentioned might blow some electronics easily!
 
Actually the voltage issue does not belong to me, first, the flashes I´ll use are newer ones and second I will have a remote trigger, yes. But nevertheless, these thoughts might be of interest for these or those who plug in flashes into the red. :-)
 
Martin Hoppe said:
Jarred, what are you saying there? Can you confirm please that my wishes could be come true? Really?

What does that mean, "Build 4.0"? Is it a firmware? Or is it a version of the grip? What do you mean by "Its in the key mapping"? and what is a "motion mount"?

Jarred, I would appreciate your help really very much! Not only is it me who is interested in that topic, also are the people here at the RED quarter, at least. Could you please, please, please tell me in detail what I have to do and what to look at to make it work?

Please remember: I NEVER had a RED in my own hands, I won´t be able to try the steps you´ll describe. I will take your advices to the RED quarter and explain what to do to the technicians over there.

If we fail to trigger the flashes, would you mind to tell the technicians to contact you?

Thank you very much!

BTW.: The light at the horizon that I saw today, the now RAW shooting Canon, will probably NOT trigger the flashes. My first attempts to find a fast shooting solution go back more than half a year now. The only system that seems to fulfill my needs is an ARRI system, at least people from ARRI told me so. But it is far to expensive even for rent. Thus, I´d be very happy if you could help me!
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Build 4.0 is the camera firmware of 4.0 and up (we're on 4.0.12 currently).
Not having a flash setup to test this with (or much experience with them), but what I believe Jarred is referring to is that the camera can do it, it just doesn't have one of the keys assigned to it by default (all keys/buttons can be remapped via the menu).
So you'd just have to change some of the keys to give access to the feature.

The Motion mount is this:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?97868-NAB13-RED-MOTION-MOUNT
 
Hello Alex! Thanks for your words. But still I have questions.

What is that "key/button" needed for? I mean, when using my Canon DSLR, there is a trigger signal every shot I make. Do I have to sort of activate the PC-Sync-Port at the RED? Why should I need a button for it? The signal will hopefully fire automatically, no?

And this motion mount? I can´t see why I should use it with a flash? Why should it improve shooting with studio flashes? Because it IS a global shutter? Okay, that would prevent half-exposed frames, but I don´t understand that thing. How can such a thing GIVE a global shutter? I mean, the shutter is sort of built into a sensor, no? Is there any real shutter at a RED at all?

Okay, you see, I am a photographer, you guys are filming people. Sorry for that huge lack of knowledge here on my side!

Best regards! Martin
 
I suppose you can shoot with your flashes if you can make them flash for as long as two frames then you will always have one frame with correct exposure. But normally you will endup with half exposures and such.

But you say you want 60fps and you want to shoot with flashes? why? are you saying that you want to flash the flashes 60 times per second? Then lamps would do better. Get some proper led lights and when you get used to it I think going back to shoot with flashes will be quite difficult...
 
Please believe me, the idea I have can neither be done with continous lights nor with strobes. Also I can´t see how to make a flash burn for two frames duration. That way, I am quite sure about that, one could not rely on equally exposured frames, because a flashlight newer lasts very long. Even the slow, thus bad ones are too fast for that. Often you would end up with half exposures and such. The duration of a flashlight is often measured as it´s t0.5-specification, that is the time, when half the power has been burnt. It´s too fast. Also I think it looks not that professional, when half of the shots are garbage while your customer stands behind you looking onto the monitor.

My idea is a technical setup that has never done before, at least this is what I suppose. Please understand I keep it a little secret until I went along with it. I really need a PC-Sync out of the RED. If it cannot be done with the PC-Sync, I will have to use the GPIO maybe. The technician at RED proposes this way.

I already invited the people from RED here in Berlin to join this thread, hopefully the way Jarred brought up here could provide the solution, it would definetly be the easiest one.

Thanks a lot. Martin.
 
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So I'm looking at this thread and thinking something very obvious might have been missed. I'm no electrical engineer, nor do I understand completely how frequency's work, but my thought when I read that the OP wants to shoot a strobe at 60FPS. If I'm not mistaken continuous lights already do this, is that not what a light that cycles at 60HZ already does?
So wouldn't a standard HMI or Flourescent fixture give you these similar results to a flash firing at 60HZ? If you created an instant On/Off Shutter for the light, wouldn't that give you the same results as a flash firing 60 times in one second?
So I figure, a completely dark environment, light is already on, camera is already running, trigger your instant on/off shutter for 1 second, and boom!
 
Thanks a lot for your suggestion. Unfortunately this is like a strobe. All I can say is that I really need a trigger signal from the camera. I am very sorry I cannot clarify why it is like that, but if you help me figure out how to do it I will post the results here and clarify why it could not be done with continous lightning nor with a strobe nor with standard HMI. Please understand me, I am hoping to be the first one ever coming up with the idea. All I can say is, I need a signal out of the cam. If not the PC-Sync, I will go for the GPIO somehow.

I would really appreciate if Jarred could describe the complete setting to make the PC-Sync work. I have no problem trying with the exposure times and the speed of the camera as long as there is no global shutter available, I am not fixed there. But I need a starting point.

Thanks a lot...
 
Dominik Muench said:
how about a flash head where you can set the flash duration ? I'm pretty sure broncolor and prophoto make heads with adjustable flash duration.
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usually people try to shorten the flash duration, not lengthen it....so these packs are optimized for that....i know broncolor has (had) one...not sure about profoto, they might....

the longer i read through this, the more i realize that we need more information about the actual project.....i think there are ways to achieve a flash/frame at 60fps, probably using some specialized equipment but since this system just has to be timed right once when started and keep the correct interval from then on, i don't see why this would have anything to do with the epic PC port.....or with the epic at all actually.....
 
The RED is the system I am taking into consideration, because it is a system that comes close to my needs. If ever I can get a signal per frame out of the camera, I can stop my researches. There is no other solution that might come into account when wanting let´s say 120 fps, as far as I can see. Both the Canon and Nikon DSLR cameras are far too slow when shooting bursts (about 12 fps), or, when being able to record movies at 60fps, they do not deliver a signal.

That´s the reason I started to look at movie cameras like the RED. So you are right, I don´t need the RED for my project, I simple need a fast shooting camera that gives me signals per frame. I am quite sure that my idea can be realized. The technician here in Berlin already showed me a way. But that way uses the sync signal and results in the needs to built a special gear to translate the signal into one I could need to trigger my flash. This is what he wrote:

"You can use the sync out of the RED. I have measured the signal of 1.2 Volt for every single frame at various speeds, from 25fps up to 350fps. But: This sync-signal is there all the time, as soon as the frame rate is chosen and also when the camera is not recording. So for your needs you have to use another signal, a "Tally" out at the PRO I/O Module. As soon as the camera starts recording, there are 3.3 Volt provided constantely while the camera is recording. So you have to use the Tally-Signal as start/stop signal and the sync for the triggering."

This sounds very promising. I can and I will do that if I have to, but first I want to make sure I cannot have it the comfortable way with an inbuilt solution that the camera already provides. So first I want to be sure: Is the PC-Sync usable or is it not?

I am sorry I am that insisting here. Actually I suppose that this question might pop up for every photographer that takes the RED into account, no? For me as still photographer it is absolutely important wheter I can use studio flashes or not, also when targeting single exposure. I appreciate your help very much. Thanks a lot!
 
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Syncing RED cameras to Unilux might be an idea?

I worked studio level vfx, had a strobe question on set and was told about the Unilux strobe lights. (I do not have direct experience with them, know of them in theory only). Here is a write up about using them with film cameras, scroll down just past halfway for lighting. http://www.photosonics.com/high_speed_article_by_conrad_kiel.html
 
Thank you Sarah. As stated, I cannot use any other lighting equipment than that what I have. Neither strobes nor hot light. Only real photograhic studio flashes. Thanks and best regards!
 
Ulf Krentz said:
Good point, I missed that. It is valid for some older style studio flash. 80V, some up to 250V. E.g. Hensel had capacitor in parallel to the input, you could see little sparks when shorting...
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html
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This list of Strobe Trigger Voltages has me very concerned. The most recent v4 Epic Operation Guide does not even identify the PC Sync port on the DSMC Side Handle with a label; let alone give any specs for it. Does anybody happen to know what voltage the Side Handle's PC Sync port is rated at? Red...are you there? For studio strobes, I have a Norman Superlite 800 rated at 14.15V (chart recommendation listed as "Your call") and a Norman P2000D rated at 48V (chart recommendation listed as "No"). I would imagine if I used my Quantum Radio Slave 4 rated at 6.8V to trigger the Normans wirelessly from the DSMC Side Handle would probably be safer, even though the chart recommendation for that unit is listed as "Your call". I'm sure many of you are more knowledgeable than me about stobe systems. Does anybody have an opinion on this? I'm anxious to try this out...
 
Paul, I would not be frightened too much, your quantum Radio Slave 4 is well within the range of the ISO specs. The recommendation in the listing is based on the Canon Powershot G which is obviously out of this specs with a critical input voltage of over 6V. RED is designed to work with various off brand accessories and devices and will take care of their ports not being too sensitive for a common application, at least this is what I would expect. On the other hand it is always good to be aware that there are still units beeing used that could definitly be critical. In addition, as I mentioned before it´s not only the voltage, also the current can be a problem, some units did have a capacitor in parallel to prevent misfiring, this capacitor had to be discharged through the sync line. I did this research long time ago after we fried up a Nikon F3 with a Hensel pack, we alwdesigned a small adapter for these packs and never had a problem ever since, meanwhile we changed the brand and sold them.

Of course it´s up to RED to give us the proper specs for the PC port, as they are probably the only people who know exactly what´s in the output stage circuit of the Side Handle. HTH.

Cheers,

Ulf
 
Ulf Krentz said:
Paul, I would not be frightened too much, your quantum Radio Slave 4 is well within the range of the ISO specs. The recommendation in the listing is based on the Canon Powershot G which is obviously out of this specs with a critical input voltage of over 6V. RED is designed to work with various off brand accessories and devices and will take care of their ports not being too sensitive for a common application, at least this is what I would expect. On the other hand it is always good to be aware that there are still units beeing used that could definitly be critical. In addition, as I mentioned before it´s not only the voltage, also the current can be a problem, some units did have a capacitor in parallel to prevent misfiring, this capacitor had to be discharged through the sync line. I did this research long time ago after we fried up a Nikon F3 with a Hensel pack, we alwdesigned a small adapter for these packs and never had a problem ever since, meanwhile we changed the brand and sold them.

Of course it´s up to RED to give us the proper specs for the PC port, as they are probably the only people who know exactly what´s in the output stage circuit of the Side Handle. HTH.

Cheers,

Ulf
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Thanks for the reply Ulf. I also wonder about polarity. On some of my sync cords, the double bladed end is polarized; others are not, or the blades are so close in size to each other that they can be plugged in either way. If polarity were so important, one would think manufacturers would use a different connector that was impossible to plug in the wrong way.
 
Hmmm... I really wonder why polarity could harm a camera. The PC-Sync is simply a short that tells the flash to fire. I don´t think there is much danger coming from flashes, if they aren´t extremely exotic or old. But I am not really sure about that.

However, I had a conversation with that very nice technician her at RED, he followed our discussion and told me, that, as far as he understood, the information provided by Jarred, does NOT mean the PC-Sync is working, but that there is a way to sync the RED to a strobe (not a strobe to the RED, ummm!?).

Okay, since I have no further reliable information that clearly states that there IS a way to make the PC-Sync port work before fall, I will try to use the sync-out-signal of the red. I will build a microcontroller based PC-Sync-Controller, that fires signals for my flash at the beat of the sync-signal. I will code in some very short yet adjustable delay into this thing.

In about 3 weeks I will post, what has happened to all that. Maybe in fall this thread will become obsolete, when the global shutter will be available. I suppose the rolling shutter is still the problem with the flashes. On the other hand, my DSLR also has a rolling shutter...

However, thanks a lot for all your suggestions! Martin.
 
Martin, if you explore the key-mapping menu, there is an option to assign a button to "Strobe: Trigger". I haven't tried plugging my strobes in yet to test; I want to gather more info first. I don't know if there's a way to assign one button to simultaneously trigger the strobe and record a single frame. Anybody know?
 
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