How to use normal studio flashes with Epic?

[Martin Hoppe]

Hello nice girls & guys,

I am a photographer and am interested in using the RED Epic DSMC for a special project. Therefor the EPIC has to trigger normal studio flashes.

I have been at the RED quarter in Berlin and spoke to a technician. At his grip there is a PC/X-Sync-Port there for triggering such flashes, I supposed. I had a normal flash to try with, but we could not make it flash a single time. So the technician called a specialist in UK, but he said it was not possible to trigger a studio flash at all.

But this is in contrast to a statement I found here in the forum: Click

It also seems somewhat strange that there should be a PC/X-Sync-Port built into the grip while it isn´t possible to use it. Or even more, a DSMC-System should be able to trigger normal flashes, no?

The very common PC-Sync port - as in every Canon DSL for example - looks like this: PC-Sync at Canon DSLR body

And here on the EPIC grip it is already built in, although painted black because it is dead?

In a later version of the grip, the PC-Sync-port is not black anymore and invites to plug in a flash.

So my sole question is: Did anyone ever trigger a normal studio flash with the EPIC, and how was it done then?

Thanks a lot! Martin...

 

[Marc Berger]

As far I know it´s not enabled. I don´t know anybody shooting with a Epic or Scarlet with a flash. To shoot with my studio flash I´m still taking a DSLR body.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

I´ll second the advice of Marc. Not sure what´s the purpose to use the EPIC with flash? You will usually not even fill a whole frame with a single flash as it cannot be syncronized. Be prepared to use continous lighting, shooting that way you will be able to choose a perfect moment of an expression or movement, which is a really great feature, but don´t forget, in the end the EPIC is a motion camera and will not replace a still camera in all aspects.

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Daniel Grosseman]

you cant trigger a studio flash with it yet...however...you can leave the camera recording and use the strobe as 'shutter'. You fire the strobe as is if it was the camera trigger, afterwards put your footage on RCXPRO and extract the frames that the flash kicked in....

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Hmmm, this is really astonishing. The "S" in DSMC is not that driven far then...

Actually I really need a motion capturing camera that is able to trigger flashes. The reason is, that I need a very fast shooting camera. The fastest DSLR nowadays deliver about 11fps while sending out a trigger, this is much to slow for what I want to do. I need at least 60 fps or so. The faster the better. I could also maybe use a 60fps DSLR that shoots movie, but there is no chance to get the trigger out, I allready checked that.

So regarding Daniels proposal then: What exactly happens, when recording movies with the EPIC and then firing flashes into it? Will I loose exposures? I mean, can I rely on having every fired flash being a valid exposure on some of the frames? Or will it be luck at all?

And another question: The EPIC delivers a strobe sync signal also, no? I have had a look at the specification, but cannot remember the values at the moment. Do you think that using this signal in any manner could lead me to success? I am able to build and program a microcontroller device that could grab the strobe-sync-signal and transform it into a PC-Sync signal - which is, btw. a bare electrical short.

Any thoughts to that?

Thanks a lot! Martin.

 

[Jon Carr]

The flash won't work till at least the new motion mount is out, that would be my guess.

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Okay, thanks a lot. I will see how this evolves. Actually I might at least have a temporary technical solution for testing my idea.

With the nightly builds of the Magic Lantern Hack for Canon it will be possible to shoot RAW video on DSLRs. But for me it is more interesting, that the camera can now bursts its sensor-content onto the card until the buffer is full, without moving the shutter mechanism and while sending out the flash trigger, i hope. Actually I am only looking for only about 16 frames but at highest speed possible.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Martin, may I ask which flash system do you plan to use? I am not aware of any studio flash system that can be retriggered at 60 flashes or more per second. Actually you might get away with an older style big flash unit that has a slow flash duration but even then the flash output will not be constant in intensity and color temperature, resulting in different lighting over the frames covered. As we don´t know what you like to shoot it is not easy to give a proper advice but I still think you should look into (if you also try to freeze motion, high speed flickerfree) continous lighting.

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Well, if you consider a flash to be able to only power out let´s say 1/128 of its capability at each trigger, it should be able to fire 128 times before having to reload. Since I actually only need 16 frames at all per shoot, this should work even with cheapest stuff, as long as I am able to adjust its power. I am quite sure that a ProFoto 8a will fire 16 frames at a very high speed easily. This is not the problem. The key is that I only need 16 frames at all, but at the fastest rate possible. Continuous lightning is definitely not an option. Please understand I keep my idea with me, I hope I am doing a quite new thing when I make it work, I am sorry for that.

Thanks you very much for all your help.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Sorry, no way. Pro8a has its shortest recycling time at 0,05s at minimum output =0,05sx60frames->3seconds, about a third of what you need. This is really fast - but still far away. You might get closer with two broncolor scoro, a twin head and alternate firing but you still need to get that sync signal sorted. What´s wrong with continous lighting, you can rent it everywhere and it will just work straight away. Good luck!

Cheers, Ulf

 

[Daniel Grosseman]

Hmmm, this is really astonishing. The "S" in DSMC is not that driven far then...
So regarding Daniels proposal then: What exactly happens, when recording movies with the EPIC and then firing flashes into it? Will I loose exposures? I mean, can I rely on having every fired flash being a valid exposure on some of the frames? Or will it be luck at all?

Well, I tried it with my Scarlet at 5k(12fps) and 2 Alien Bees Strobes(B800 and B1600) it kinda worked. I ended up losing about 1/5th of my exposures but I was working at 12fps.

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Well, thanks a lot for sharing your experience. Unfortunately this is on par with a fast continuous shooting burst from a modern DSLR and doesn´t solve my problem. Arghhhh, I don´t have my flashes here, I already tried the RAW-Shooting mode on my 5D, but I still don´t know if it delivers a flash trigger each frame. Tomorrow I can try with my flashes. Thanks you very much so far.

 

[Jarred Land]

Heh heh that trigger is already in the new builds...... you just need to be using Build 4.0 or above and it is in the Key Mapping. You are likely going to need to play with the shutter to avoid a split flash. That of course gets improved significantly with a motion mount.

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Jarred, what are you saying there? Can you confirm please that my wishes could be come true? Really?

What does that mean, "Build 4.0"? Is it a firmware? Or is it a version of the grip? What do you mean by "Its in the key mapping"? and what is a "motion mount"?

Jarred, I would appreciate your help really very much! Not only is it me who is interested in that topic, also are the people here at the RED quarter, at least. Could you please, please, please tell me in detail what I have to do and what to look at to make it work?

Please remember: I NEVER had a RED in my own hands, I won´t be able to try the steps you´ll describe. I will take your advices to the RED quarter and explain what to do to the technicians over there.

If we fail to trigger the flashes, would you mind to tell the technicians to contact you?

Thank you very much!

BTW.: The light at the horizon that I saw today, the now RAW shooting Canon, will probably NOT trigger the flashes. My first attempts to find a fast shooting solution go back more than half a year now. The only system that seems to fulfill my needs is an ARRI system, at least people from ARRI told me so. But it is far to expensive even for rent. Thus, I´d be very happy if you could help me!

 

[paul schefz]

i am not sure i understand....you need more then 12 frames/sec but you want a single trigger? how are you going to push the trigger that fast?
super high speed photography is easier to do in a dark room...you open the shutter and let the flashes fire....no need to freeze anything with a shutter, the flash will do it for you...so really the epic could do in a way do the same fro you....you let it run (at very high fps) and trigger your flashes.....problem is how do you sync the flashes with the frames and how on earth do you find any flash system with a recycle that fast (as ulf already mentioned)...you could do a test with a cheap on camera flash in strobe setting but that only lasts a few seconds.....maybe a special effects strobe light (disco light) might work....
reagardless...even if you get a perfectly synced strobe exposure with every frame....you get the same as just using hot lights....a perfectly exposed frame....

 

[Martin Hoppe]

Hello Paul,

I am absolutely aware of the way flashes reload, the drawbacks and so on. It is a special setup I will use, actually the recycling time of the flashes I use is nearby 1/1000 of a second. In fact I brake the barriers of any recycling time with this system. Thus the problem on the flash side is completely solved. I cannot explain here how is it done, I am very sorry for that. As soon as I made it work and shot my first series with it, I promise, I will clarify how it is done. I promise, I NEED a single flash trigger for every exposed frame, I cannot use a continuous light for what I want to do. Also a strobe is not of interest. I really need the trigger signal at the fastest shooting speed I can get.

 

[Russ Fill]

This is a very interesting thread and I for one will be looking forward to the results. I have a few creative thoughts and would really like to understand this process better to apply the use of flashes with my Epic shoots at times.
So don't forget to post some more info when you got it all sorted.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Yes, for sure and it would really be a great feature to get a frame sync out of the PC connector, I´m more than excited about this, but this is probably up to RED to get that sorted. Not sure about Jarred´s reply, I remember reading about a single frame capture in build 4, still on 3.xx here, didn´t want to upgrade during a production. Is the PC plug supported now? Jarred´s comment about the split flash does not make me believe it is fully implemented for now. RED?

Looked up the specs of the Scoro S, a single unit can recycle at 0,02s which could be fine for standard frame rates and wow, this would open up a complete new range of lighting. Xenon discharge has full light spectrum and a perfect CRI, would love to have that option. (A nightmare for the sound guys, though).
@Martin, just saying, if you really would have 1/1000s recycling time with a studio flash system you´re very close to continous lighting ;-) There is a guy in france that does this for industrial applications (solar simulation).

 

[Dr. Sassi]

I'm not certain about it, as I do not know all old flashes. But if you test this with the flash that you have "since ever", make certain that the trigger "voltage" of your flash --if it is an old one-- is not destroying your camera. Modern digital flashes have most-likely not that effect on cameras.
Sorry if that is obvious to everyone, but I couldn't resist to post that here.

 

[Martin Hoppe]

But this is only an issue with old compact flashes, not? Or does it belong to studio flashes too?