New Mac Pro Announced at WWDC! - It's OFFICIAL!

[Dustin Cross]

My problem with the new Mac Pro is how do I get it in a rack environment? The current Mac Pro was annoying, this is just stupid.

It is a great little desktop Mac Mini Pro for people who don't need to move (DITs) or need much expansion. To connect all the devices I need to do my job to this new Mac, it would look like a bunch of Octopuses a having an orgy. Cables going everywhere. Think about every cable inside your tower. Now move them outside the tower and don't forget all those external devices need power. This new Mac is going to be a nightmare of cables if you try to use all the devices a professional uses in a power system.

Great machine for people who need Mac Mini on steroids. I just wish it was a cube so we could stack them. Terrible machine for real power users.


Dusty

 

[Rob Anderson]

i am getting 600+ R/W raid5 on my pegasus R6 12TB and that is with hard drives.....

Really? You smoked our tests then. We tested with that hardware (and a few other configurations) and our results were all in line with what these guys got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqNZVpT2RQ

Even at RAID 0(!) the Pegasus R6 hit 520 write 480 read. We were within 20-40 MB/s of that result.

Surprised you're saying you get 600/600..........

 

[Mike Harrington]

The issue with this is the expansion bandwidth....
With no expansion slots and everything relegated to TB, you have a grand total of 24 pci v2 lanes....as TB2 is connected through 4 lane pci v2.....

That's 1 16x slot and 1x8 slot v2.....

At least they put 2 kick ass GPU's in the little beast....but as far as expansion that could be a limiting factor at some point

 

[Peter Majtan]

TB is certainly not the issue here IMHO. I think many here are little premature about the RRX.
Just because it is 8x or even 16x PCIe design card - it does not mean it actually utilizes that bandwidth...
At 20Gbps in both directions - the TB2 should show no (or a very little) difference between it and the card being in a normal tower.
Think about it - first the RAW data needs to be sent to the RRX for processing (here even TB1 is an overkill).
Then the data is processed in the RRX (which is independent of the interconnect) and then either:
A. sent out uncompressed 4K video to external display connected to the RRX (again independent on the interconnect)
or
B. sends back up to 6K RGB uncompressed buffer - again well in the specs for TB2 for greater then real-time transfers
or
C. sends back transcoded video in some compressed codec - even easier then the uncompressed - so easily could achieve faster then RT transcoding of 6K Dragon footage...

And remember that the sending back happens on an independent 20Gbps pipe...

I believe we will see dramatic performance increase when using the RRX in TB2 and any possible further increase by having the card sitting in a normal PCIe tower will be minimal...

:sifone: Peter

 

[paul schefz]

After wading through this and other MacPro threads it seems a lot of folks are assuming there will only be one model/build of this. That doesn't make sense to me nor does it match with Apple's past history. As far back as I can remember, you could alway make choices in processor arrangement (4, 6, 8, 12 cores) and processor speed, hard drives, etc. There will be options. :thumbup:

not so sure about that....it used to be that the mac pro was a box (with a cpu) for all the stuff...drives, gnu, cards,....these things aren't really about expansion at all....they are about pure power....so i don't expect to see a lot of options.....the good thing about that is that apple can make them cheaper because they just buy fewer components in higher numbers....
considering that the sales of these probably wouldn't register on a pie chart...but almost seem like a marketing idea.....maybe apple will sell them at cost....it is more important that these will be fast and out there and that they will make a certain core apple group happy, who in turn will make awesome things with them, which will bring apple great pr, which sells more iPhones, iPads,....

 

[Shervin Mandgaryan]

I thought this site was REDUser and not MACPROUser. Good lord is this thread getting long!

 

[Joe Kleber]

Really? You smoked our tests then. We tested with that hardware (and a few other configurations) and our results were all in line with what these guys got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqNZVpT2RQ

Even at RAID 0(!) the Pegasus R6 hit 520 write 480 read. We were within 20-40 MB/s of that result.

Surprised you're saying you get 600/600..........

The original question was "would TB Version 2 match HIS performance?" and the answer is yes.

Here's a sample of what you can get from TB version 1...

http://www.storagereview.com/lacie_5big_thunderbolt_raid_review

 

[Terry VerHaar]

For all you guys who have a problem with the form factor: get a big cardboard box (whatever size that fits your needs), place the cylinder in the box, then put in whatever peripherals you want (don't forget to plug them in), close the box. There, now you have the equivalent of the old tower and what every other PC maker does. :smiley:

By the way - the design is not just for aesthetics, it's also for heat dissipation. I'm no engineer but it seems to make sense to me.

 

[Mike Harrington]

TB is certainly not the issue here IMHO. I think many here are little premature about the RRX.
Just because it is 8x or even 16x PCIe design card - it does not mean it actually utilizes that bandwidth...
At 20Gbps in both directions - the TB2 should show no (or a very little) difference between it and the card being in a normal tower.
Think about it - first the RAW data needs to be sent to the RRX for processing (here even TB1 is an overkill).
Then the data is processed in the RRX (which is independent of the interconnect) and then either:
A. sent out uncompressed 4K video to external display connected to the RRX (again independent on the interconnect)
or
B. sends back up to 6K RGB uncompressed buffer - again well in the specs for TB2 for greater then real-time transfers
or
C. sends back transcoded video in some compressed codec - even easier then the uncompressed - so easily could achieve faster then RT transcoding of 6K Dragon footage...

And remember that the sending back happens on an independent 20Gbps pipe...

I believe we will see dramatic performance increase when using the RRX in TB2 and any possible further increase by having the card sitting in a normal PCIe tower will be minimal...

:sifone: Peter

You are probably right...and there is plenty of bandwidth for the foreseeable future....
I'm just splitting hairs pointing out that its not actually 20gb if its connection is only 4 lanes pci v2.....max possible is 16gb...and that would be divided between incoming and outgoing traffic.......so you are down to 8gb (if 2 way bandwidth is occurring)

 

[M Most]

Perfect for throwing on our DIT cart. Looking forward to that. For everything else... I'm not seeing a reason to pop over from loaded 2012 MP's. Particularly when that means sacrificing our screaming RAID 50 SAS arrays. TB2 doesn't seem to cut it.

Really? Thunderbolt2 is a 20Gb connection (and the new machine has 6 of them). SAS is 6Gb in its faster implementation. Even FibreChannel currently tops out at 8Gb. Seems to me that TB2 connected arrays will "scream" much louder than what you currently have. And with a smaller, more flexible cable. And if you really want to keep what you're currently using, Thunderbolt to SAS turnarounds are already available, because even at 10Gb it has higher bandwidth than SAS. What am I missing here?

 

[Peter Majtan]

...and that would be divided between incoming and outgoing traffic

Nope - the two way traffic is completely independent and both offer 20Gbps. Just because something is based on something else - it does not mean it shares its performance. Intel would not release 20Gbps bi-directional transfer spec if it was not true...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Rob Anderson]

Nope - the two way traffic is completely independent and both offer 20Gbps. Just because something is based on something else - it does not mean it shares its performance. Intel would not release 20Gbps bi-directional transfer spec if it was not true...

:sifone: Peter

well that's pretty damn impressive.

 

[Sarah C.]

No resemblance whatsoever. (wink)
(Pardon the fun, Apple... we still love you!)

 

[Mike Harrington]

Nope - the two way traffic is completely independent and both offer 20Gbps. Just because something is based on something else - it does not mean it shares its performance. Intel would not release 20Gbps bi-directional transfer spec if it was not true...

:sifone: Peter

The spec for the cable is true....but if the connection into the interface is only capable of 16gb then that is the limiting factor....
This is the falcon bridge chipsets design
There is lots of USB 3 boards with 1 lane pci v1 interfaces that can only run at half their bandwith....
AKAIK you cannot exceed 16gb with 4 lanes pci v2 no matter what advertising says

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

not so sure about that....it used to be that the mac pro was a box (with a cpu) for all the stuff...drives, gnu, cards,....these things aren't really about expansion at all....they are about pure power....so i don't expect to see a lot of options.....the good thing about that is that apple can make them cheaper because they just buy fewer components in higher numbers....
considering that the sales of these probably wouldn't register on a pie chart...but almost seem like a marketing idea.....maybe apple will sell them at cost....it is more important that these will be fast and out there and that they will make a certain core apple group happy, who in turn will make awesome things with them, which will bring apple great pr, which sells more iPhones, iPads,....

Apple is very consistent with pricing. At least until the iPad. Going way, way back, their products have always cost about 1/3 as much to make as they did to sell. Now, this does not include design and engineering and software development and marketing. But raw part purchases and manufacturing costs about 1/3 whatever it is that you pay for the product. Also remember that retailers take a chunk and such, and this really isn't that out of line with other companies.

Except for the iPad. iPads cost about 1/2 to make as they do for you to buy. iPads are an amazing deal, in terms of the Apple ecosphere.

iSupply is a site that usually posts a breakdown of what the products cost to part out and manufacture about 1-2 months after each product is released. If you're really curious, just keep your eyes open.

 

[Peter Majtan]

The spec for the cable is true....but if the connection into the interface is only capable of 16gb then that is the limiting factor....
This is the falcon bridge chipsets design
There is lots of USB 3 boards with 1 lane pci v1 interfaces that can only run at half their bandwith....
AKAIK you cannot exceed 16gb with 4 lanes pci v2 no matter what advertising says

The internal interconnect of the interfaces in the new Mac Pro is based around PCIe v3, not 2 - and the specs for the TB technology is for the whole tech, not just the "cable". There is a reason why Intel is controlling so tightly any implementation / certification of the TB. And, as I have pointed out earlier, the main issue here seems to be RRX, which I highly doubt would be slowed down even by a single TB2. It will all come down to clever and adapted drivers...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Rob Anderson]

Really? Thunderbolt2 is a 20Mb connection (and the new machine has 6 of them). SAS is 6Mb in its faster implementation. Even FibreChannel currently tops out at 8Mb. Seems to me that TB2 connected arrays will "scream" much louder than what you currently have. And with a smaller, more flexible cable. And if you really want to keep what you're currently using, Thunderbolt to SAS turnarounds are already available, because even at 10Mb it has higher bandwidth than SAS. What am I missing here?

You're missing every real world test out there:
http://www.barefeats.com/tbolt01.html

Believe me. We tried way more than we should have. Nothing beat SAS (RAID cards) and R50 is the only real world performance striping anyone should really be doing. TB2 is untested and theoretical at this point. I don't see it offering a major advantage for me to dump my current storage path. If I'm wrong, that's great news. I'll gladly buy more ATTO boxes to make it work. But if I'm right, and it seems likely, I'll be annoyed Apple didn't think to build a damn PCI slot into their 'Pro' gear.

Other than that I'm happy.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

not so sure about that....it used to be that the mac pro was a box (with a cpu) for all the stuff...drives, gnu, cards,....these things aren't really about expansion at all....they are about pure power....so i don't expect to see a lot of options.....the good thing about that is that apple can make them cheaper because they just buy fewer components in higher numbers....
considering that the sales of these probably wouldn't register on a pie chart...but almost seem like a marketing idea.....maybe apple will sell them at cost....it is more important that these will be fast and out there and that they will make a certain core apple group happy, who in turn will make awesome things with them, which will bring apple great pr, which sells more iPhones, iPads,....

If you look at the presentation on the Apple site, you will see a lot of "up to..." Example being "up to 12 cores," "up to 7 teraflops..." - I think this strongly indicates more than one model.

 

[paul schefz]

Really? You smoked our tests then. We tested with that hardware (and a few other configurations) and our results were all in line with what these guys got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYqNZVpT2RQ

Even at RAID 0(!) the Pegasus R6 hit 520 write 480 read. We were within 20-40 MB/s of that result.

Surprised you're saying you get 600/600..........

this is a really quick test .....and at about 70% full....

 

[M Most]

Also... if you upgrade from a nVidia GTX 680 to a nVidia TITAN, you can sell the GTX 680 used.

There won't be as much of a market in re-selling a graphics card that only plugs into a Mac Pro and is now a generation behind!

Bruce, I'm really surprised at all of your comments on this thread. You're usually a lot more reasonable and a lot more reasoned in your thinking. But on this, you seem to have made up your mind far in advance of the reality of an actual shipping product. Even Apple was very careful to call this a "Sneak Preview." In our industry, that usually means the sound is not final, the visual effects are temporary, and the color has not been done. To judge a movie based on those things is not a good idea for laypeople. And to judge a radically redesigned computer at that stage is equally as presumptuous.

As far as video and GPU, my guess (and my guesses have been pretty good up to this point...) is that by the time this ships, there might be an NVidia option available, either directly from Apple or from others. Apple has clearly sanctioned a new form factor for the GPU's in this machine, and probably a new connector as a part of that. Giving that spec to Nvidia and its manufacturing partners would not be much of stretch. Personally, I don't understand so many people here being so attached to cards. PCIe cards completely suck in every way. They have all of their components exposed, making them fragile. They are static sensitive. They have many connectors that are easily damaged, and have to be reseated from time to time for no apparent reason. They cannot be miniaturized since they have to conform to a legacy form factor. They require more and more power and produce more and more heat. They often require drivers, and that leads to incompatibilities with new OS's and other issues. The fact is that one needs to look at real world cases to see whether Apple's new approach is really limiting anything. For my purposes, most towers contain cards to do only a few things: GPUs, storage HBA's, storage I/O (eSata and USB3, usually, but often SAS or Fibre Channel as well), and video I/O, especially SDI video. So based on that, let's review. GPU: in the new Mac Pro, that's a moot point, although options would be nice and, as I said, will most likely be offered, albeit not necessarily on the ship date. Storage I/O: No longer needed, as TB2 is faster than any current storage interconnect and still allows adapters to legacy interconnects. USB3: Included. Video I/O: Thunderbolt also acts as a video transport and supports larger resolutions than any existing Mac compatible video card. And for video type monitors, there's also HDMI 1.4 built in. SDI Video: Well, there's already the TBolt connected Blackmagic Ultra Studio 4K for less than $1000 that does more than any existing PCIe card, and works with anything that supports Blackmagic video cards, which now includes everything from Avid to Smoke to Adobe to Resolve.

I'm not going to say the new machine is for everyone, although that might eventually turn out to be the case. But what I see is one hell of an innovative design, a bump in performance that's not limited only to the hardware (or did you not watch the part of the keynote that talked about OS X and the performance improvements they've worked on implementing?), a potential end to legacy PCI type cards (and as far as I'm concerned, that is a very, very good thing, not the horrible thing you and others seem to want to make it out to be), and an invitation to third party manufacturers to up their game as well, even though that wasn't talked about today because it was only a "Sneak Preview," not a product rollout. I think you need to sit back, look at the big picture, let go of any prejudices you might have based on personal investment, and look at this in terms of a technology exercise. You might find a lot to like.