The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Rudi Herbert]

...in other words, if you use Pawel's product, you do not need any damn insurance, because his housing is immune to the maladies that plague every other brand it seems...

Tom, I've had coverage with Heffernan for many years, and last year I needed it for the first time when three cameras and two housings got stolen from my locked car (policy exclusion there when unlocked) and I have to say, getting my money back was straightforward and painless. They came through for me. Now, flooding is considered by insurance companies as result of negligence usually, since most equipment is expected to be kept in such condition that at the very least it should be protected from water. No company that I'm aware of exists that would insure cameras from housing flooding, it is too risky a proposition for them, and no company caters exclusively to the needs of underwater shooters, we are too small a segment and way too high risk. After all, we not only take our very expensive gear underwater but we constantly travel with it, take it to unstable international destinations and operate it under inclement weather conditions. Don't get me wrong, I am on "our"side, but failing to understand the almost uninsurable risk we represent to such a company is being plain blind. I have heard, only through second and third hand sources, never directly from anyone, that some people who've had equipment flooded also had the incredible misfortune of having said gear run over by their production truck the same day, and unsure as to what to do, ended up filing a claim for the latter damage but never mentioned the former flooding...and they got their money...of course I'm not suggesting such a course of action, and I would never do it, but there is always a way...

 

[Ross Isaacs]

Hey Rudi
Cinesure (FIUA) in Australia most definitely insures all my gear for multi risk including flooding and are terrific when it comes to paying claims. Pawel is merely attempting to sell his product yet again, given every chance to do so by twisting the topic towards his being the best rhetoric.

 

[Jason Sturgis]

Still waiting to talk to my agent at the aforementioned insurance agency about this policy issue. I guess what threw me about this current situation is that I have email correspondence from my old rep in 2009 (when I first purchased the policy) as I asked point blank if the camera was covered for use underwater. 'Yes' was the answer.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

This works, but for home-owners and their gear, but NOT for professionals....be sure to ask if it covers you while on a job and theft or theft off the airlines....this will reveal a new feeling of interest. but if you only shoot close to home and are not a working professional then a good route to go....

As far as I know Johnny, you use Heffernan as well. Are you paying extra premiums for flood?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

... I have heard, only through second and third hand sources, never directly from anyone, that some people who've had equipment flooded also had the incredible misfortune of having said gear run over by their production truck the same day, and unsure as to what to do, ended up filing a claim for the latter damage but never mentioned the former flooding...and they got their money...of course I'm not suggesting such a course of action, and I would never do it, but there is always a way...

Yes, indeed, this "way" is commonly called "insurance fraud" and it is criminal offence in some countries....but, thanks for your recommendation, Rudi.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

With all due respect Rudi, in our business flood is our primary risk.

Mauricio may have got it right, he uses Heff for all 'normal' stuff; theft, damage, divorce, etc, and insures with DAN for flooding. Apparently, as a dive insurance agency, they actually understand what happens, when shit happens, underwater.

That's where I'm going.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Yes, indeed, this "way" is commonly called "insurance fraud" and it is criminal offence in some countries....but, thanks for your recommendation, Rudi.

Give it a rest Pawel, we are having a huge problem here. To suggest your housings are immune to flooding, is tantamount to suggesting the next Pope will be from South America.

Now, back to the problem at hand, how to bring these insurance exec feckers to heel...

 

[Johnny Friday]

Hefferen used to sell Fireman's insurance policy and now they are using One Beacon....slightly cheaper by about .05% per policy....but as pointed out....(i have a call in to them today--but they don't find my policy and i've been with them for four years)....so i have not been able to confirm as Tom and Jason have that indeed i am not covered for flooding. BUT, the old policy with Fireman's DID cover flooding and i was paid off for an incident years ago....so this is quite alarming news....

...So for those of us in the USA, the word is out and i'm expecting i'll jump ship tomorrow if it turns out i have no coverage for flooding...and I'd expect a number more of us will jump ship...Anyone have Leads on insurance then? Same type? to cover us from theft while in transit, posting in mail, on job out of country etc....?

 

[Johnny Friday]

Mauricio may have got it right, he uses Heff for all 'normal' stuff; theft, damage, divorce, etc, and insures with DAN for flooding. Apparently, as a dive insurance agency, they actually understand what happens, when shit happens, underwater.

That's where I'm going.

Last i checked with Dan---it's been a few years mind you--yes, they do insure for such things, but they also have limitations on policy amount..last i had checked it was $10k and one could get a special rider to go to around $20k....i might be off with those numbers a bit, but whatever it was it was not even close to coverage most of us require. Also, no insurance on sending gear in post etc...all the normal things you take for grantid when on a production job---someone moving your gear and breaking it etc...Be sure to check well and get not only verbal but in writing.

Jason, i also have dealt with same agent there...but sadly she has moved on...Hefferen now has HORRIBLE customer service--Bob C. pointed this out to me lately and today i found out...these folks cannot even find my policy today, nor can the operator put me in touch with an agent. At days end i finally got the operator to put me through to someone only to get an answering machine telling me to email them and a representative would get back to me within 24 to 48 hours---it is incredibly frustrating to deal with this stuff w/out a live person and to wait to get answers to our questions on our policies we have had for many years is even more of a sad token of lack of any customer service--regardless of whether i get confirmation of flood insurance, i'm moving to another agency....one that at least assigns an agent that will talk to me.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Hey Rudi
Cinesure (FIUA) in Australia most definitely insures all my gear for multi risk including flooding and are terrific when it comes to paying claims. Pawel is merely attempting to sell his product yet again, given every chance to do so by twisting the topic towards his being the best rhetoric.

No, I'm not trying to sell you anything, Ross, even if you wanted to. I'm not that desperate, mate. But, I'm sick and tired of your constant trolling making personal accusations against me.

When was last time you contributed anything interesting to the forum? Your favourite 5k frame grab or high resolution video taken with your favourite housing would be a good start.

You clearly do not understand what self insurance is and how it works. I'm happy with that, but there is no need to ridicule others and troll.

I have been using self insurance well before I had any housings for sale and it works for me. But, I do accept that self insurance may not be the best solution for everyone, particularly for a 30m rated housing requiring a crane to lift.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Give it a rest Pawel, we are having a huge problem here. To suggest your housings are immune to flooding, is tantamount to suggesting the next Pope will be from South America....

This is not what I suggested in the quote you referred to or in any other comment on the subject.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Why are you making personal accusations, use rude language, ask me a question and then request me to keep silent?

I do accept that a housing is "a machine", but I do not accept that it is "like any other". The relevant differences between "machines" can be observed and quantified and are generally measured in MTBF which is associated with Failure Rate. These are not factors that are "beyond our control". These are factors that are well within our control.

There are also other factors, such as practices and procedures, which I have mentioned. These are factors that are also within our control.

There are other risks that may not be within our control. Those risks may be more compelling to insure against. But, those risks can be also identified, assessed and mitigated (reduced or eliminated) either through fail safe design, procedures, practices or other means available to us.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Was just getting ready to renew my policy with these guys, NOT now..

I got email from the guy, I asked him about his moisture exclusion, even if the housing doesn't flood, if the camera gets moisture and is damaged they don't cover it. Made me laugh. A "All Risk" Worldwide Policy, but SUBJECT TO POLICY EXCLUSIONS.

On a small obscure line in the 40 something pages of the policy. It is up to us to read the WHOLE THING.

Looking for insurance again. Even the H20 DAN insurance, if you drop the housing out of your hands, it excludes paying, they've all got exclusions to get out of paying. Frustrating.

There's got to be a good company that will actually really cover the UW housing, camera in water properly.

These guys told me if it got splashed on a boat it's not covered..Huh? I asked him what does it really cover??

Water damage if pipes burst in your home...one answer. Please.

Don't buy the Hefferman policy, won't pay you if you flood your housing or even accidentally fall in the ocean with your camera in your hands.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Still waiting to talk to my agent at the aforementioned insurance agency about this policy issue. I guess what threw me about this current situation is that I have email correspondence from my old rep in 2009 (when I first purchased the policy) as I asked point blank if the camera was covered for use underwater. 'Yes' was the answer.

I'm pretty sure it was originally but they changed their policy after a few years Jason. I never saw the current info on my previous policy. But you can't even call the company anymore, they don't take calls at all, I called their office today to discuss this and they said they only have one agent and a trainee and they won't take any calls about their policies anymore by phone.

You have to email them to get any information.

Their policy has changed over the last years to NOW exclude UW use. So if you are now insured I'd personally look elsewhere.

Merely not being able to speak with anyone about the policy is enough for me to not renew.

Frazier

 

[Mark_Thorpe]

This is why I tend to stay away from this board these days. I thought we're here to discuss the wonderment of underwater cinematography and the associated pain inducing, rewarding, depressing, illuminating senses of achievement and failure it brings when you knock the nail on the head or miss the nail altogether. This is now what, the third thread that seems to be spiraling back into a bitch slapping contest?

It's a forum guys, grow up. If you don't like a post, walk away, ignore it. Feeding the flames of posts that ignite your displeasure are only going to achieve one more closure of an underwater themed thread.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

With all due respect Rudi, in our business flood is our primary risk.

Mauricio may have got it right, he uses Heff for all 'normal' stuff; theft, damage, divorce, etc, and insures with DAN for flooding. Apparently, as a dive insurance agency, they actually understand what happens, when shit happens, underwater.

That's where I'm going.

H20 is ok as long as you can give them the gear. If you lose or drop camera housing underwater due to anything you are not covered.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Pawel,

Of course I was not recommending, or condoning, insurance fraud. My point was more that, just as insurance companies and their unscrupulous agents go to whatever lengths to, generally, not honor their commitments and obligations to their clients, so must we be flexible and creative in our thinking. At any rate, as per your own admission of being self insured, I think you probably do not have a valid point of reference to even offer any kind of input in this particular topic.

Tom,

I would be interested in knowing what this guy would have offered in the way of a policy that does cover floods and other expected events in our field. Did you completely shut the door on them or could you request such a quote just as a point of reference? I have not used DAN before, but always had an amalgam of coverage if you will, from Heffernan's to home owners' to American Express', which has excellent coverage for oversea travels including equipment damage and failure. At any rate, being that things are much more reasonable in OZ and anywhere else in the world when it comes to money, I would not be surprised if an underwater imaging tailored policy in this country were ridiculously, prohibitively expensive. But if it turns out that it isn't, and you find that proverbial treasure, please do share with us.

And in keeping up with Pawel's MO now, I have not suffered a flood in the past 15 years ever since I permanently switched to Gates housings Maybe I should self insure...

 

[Jason Sturgis]

Last i checked with Dan---it's been a few years mind you--yes, they do insure for such things, but they also have limitations on policy amount..last i had checked it was $10k and one could get a special rider to go to around $20k....i might be off with those numbers a bit, but whatever it was it was not even close to coverage most of us require. Also, no insurance on sending gear in post etc...all the normal things you take for grantid when on a production job---someone moving your gear and breaking it etc...Be sure to check well and get not only verbal but in writing.

Jason, i also have dealt with same agent there...but sadly she has moved on...Hefferen now has HORRIBLE customer service--Bob C. pointed this out to me lately and today i found out...these folks cannot even find my policy today, nor can the operator put me in touch with an agent. At days end i finally got the operator to put me through to someone only to get an answering machine telling me to email them and a representative would get back to me within 24 to 48 hours---it is incredibly frustrating to deal with this stuff w/out a live person and to wait to get answers to our questions on our policies we have had for many years is even more of a sad token of lack of any customer service--regardless of whether i get confirmation of flood insurance, i'm moving to another agency....one that at least assigns an agent that will talk to me.

Hey Johnny,

Yeah, the service seems to have slipped. I too had to email someone and I am now awaiting a response. So no confirmation on my policy and if I am covered for underwater work or not. Keep us posted if you find another option that suits our needs and our required coverage.

It's not exactly clear from Tom's answer that he got from Heff if they would honor a claim for underwater damage. " This does not consider that, typically, if we were to submit a claim with your circumstances to the carrier and explain the circumstances, the carrier would probably process the claim regardless." "Probably" is not the kind of word I like to hear when dealing with claims and gear.

Thanks again for all for the info. Much appreciated!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, don't make me shut this thread down. Let's all shake hands, kiss asses and do whatever we need to do so that everyone gets along.

I don't know what's up in here, but there must be something <cough> in the water... People get so worked up in these underwater threads over what amounts to absolutely nothing. I've read every single post in this thread. Even the deleted ones... And had to double back and read the past week or so of discussion just to make sure I wasn't missing something now that everything is going to hell in a hand basket again. Nope, I didn't miss anything. WTF is wrong with everyone in here? Perhaps there are private exchanges I am unaware of? And if that is the case, please don't let it affect demeanor in the forum. Or if it's an issue you feel needs to be aired publicly, then do it tactfully and with purpose. Which does not seem to be happening here at all.

I read this thread regularly as an occasional underwater shooter myself. Not so much recently, I've dunked a RED One a time or three, but not the EPIC. I guess I'll get around to doing it... sooner or later... Anyway, I just bring it up that I usually follow along with the underwater discussion out of personal interest. Usually this is one place on the forum I rarely feel compelled to post anything. Unless it's a post like this.

/rant.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Yes, agreed

Yes, agreed

OK, don't make me shut this thread down. Let's all shake hands, kiss asses and do whatever we need to do so that everyone gets along.

I don't know what's up in here, but there must be something <cough> in the water... People get so worked up in these underwater threads over what amounts to absolutely nothing. I've read every single post in this thread. Even the deleted ones... And had to double back and read the past week or so of discussion just to make sure I wasn't missing something now that everything is going to hell in a hand basket again. Nope, I didn't miss anything. WTF is wrong with everyone in here? Perhaps there are private exchanges I am unaware of? And if that is the case, please don't let it affect demeanor in the forum. Or if it's an issue you feel needs to be aired publicly, then do it tactfully and with purpose. Which does not seem to be happening here at all.

I read this thread regularly as an occasional underwater shooter myself. Not so much recently, I've dunked a RED One a time or three, but not the EPIC. I guess I'll get around to doing it... sooner or later... Anyway, I just bring it up that I usually follow along with the underwater discussion out of personal interest. Usually this is one place on the forum I rarely feel compelled to post anything. Unless it's a post like this.

/rant.

Totally agree, no need for arguments. I have put Uw bubble blowers on back burner. Same old same old. Useful info appreciated, yelling at each other not useful.