GROUP BUY: CAME steadycam 2-15kg >1600USD

[Mark Schlicher]

Lots of you are missing the point. It is not a magic wand, it is an instrument, like a guitar. It doesn't play itself. It's not magic, you don't whip it out of the trunk once in awhile and lay down a competent, professional quality shot, whether it's genuine or knockoff. Whether or not you aspire to be fulltime Steadi, it takes practice and commitment even to be tolerably good at it so that when you do whip it out of your trunk your shots don't float and tilt and bounce around like they were shot by a drunken 14-year-old.

A professional operator can make a crap stabilizer look pretty good...to a point. But there are stabilizers that are so poorly built and designed that even a pro can't deliver consistently good results.

A novice with no training is almost guaranteed to have crappy results, even with a good stabilizer. With a crappy stabilizer, double-guaranteed. Hand Eric Clapton a crappy guitar, and he'll fight to keep it in tune and to wring some tonality out of it and will manage to make it sound OK. Hand him a great guitar and he'll make it soar. Hand me Clapton's guitar and it will sound sad and pitiful.

So, maybe (though from the pictures I doubt it) the Chinese stabilizer will be tolerable to operate. Your Steadicam shots will still suck (most of us suck for the first couple of years or more). If you don't think you suck, then you better train your eyes better because other people in the industry CAN see that your Steadicam shots suck and you will lose credibility and slow your career advancement.

I'm not a fulltime Steadicam operator, I also DP and sometimes direct. So I get the desire for doing your own operating. But I take Steadicam operating very seriously and devote a lot of time to practice and study. Why? Because it takes effort and study to master (or even get halfway decent). And because a bad Steadicam shot that is allowed to stay in a film is a sure giveaway of a hack or worse...a poseur. I'd rather design a good shot on sticks than settle for a poorly designed and poorly-executed Steadicam shot.

And everything that people are saying about lack of proper form being the source of most pain, and being dangerous for your back health is absolutely true.

So yeah, hire a pro. Or if you're dying to operate, for God's sake take it seriously. Buy a decent rig and get some training. It amazes me that people want a Steadicam "look" to their shots but are unwilling to spend HALF as much on a stabilizer as on a single prime lens.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Most Steadicam shots aren't "dreamy" or "floaty". Most Steadicam shots isolate the viewer from the camera by making the movement less distracting. In most walk-and-talks, you focus on the action and not the camera movement as you might with hand held.

I also like that you just pulled a percentage out of thin air. How do you know what percent of good you were, and how long it would take you to learn enough to make a passable shot? How long would it then take to make a great shot?

It's a matter of nomenclature I guess, but if you compare steadicam to crane or dolly or mechanical head, there's an aesthetic difference, for obvious mechanical and ergonomic reasons (if only for the 'trace amounts' of pitch yaw and roll).

The percentage is not scientific, I'm just referring to the learning curve and the steep gains before expertise is attained. 65 percent of expertise, for example, is still a long way from expertise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve.
I didn't qualify how long it would take exactly either hehe. That's all beside the central point.

 

[Brett Harrison]

A novice with no training is almost guaranteed to have crappy results, even with a good stabilizer. With a crappy stabilizer, double-guaranteed. Hand Eric Clapton a crappy guitar, and he'll fight to keep it in tune and to wring some tonality out of it and will manage to make it sound OK. Hand him a great guitar and he'll make it soar. Hand me Clapton's guitar and it will sound sad and pitiful.

That's a very good analogy. Take the Dead Man soundtrack as an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aCMgy0ES4. I've seen kids play guitar to a greater technical level after 6 months of enthusiastic practice.

You don't have to be Steve Vai to write and perform a song. Dead Man's guitar is stark and even imperfect - for the chosen aesthetic. That's going to mean 'riffs' that play around your lack of technical ability.

 

[Alex Kornreich]

Lots of you are missing the point. It is not a magic wand, it is an instrument, like a guitar. It doesn't play itself. It's not magic, you don't whip it out of the trunk once in awhile and lay down a competent, professional quality shot, whether it's genuine or knockoff. Whether or not you aspire to be fulltime Steadi, it takes practice and commitment even to be tolerably good at it so that when you do whip it out of your trunk your shots don't float and tilt and bounce around like they were shot by a drunken 14-year-old.

A professional operator can make a crap stabilizer look pretty good...to a point. But there are stabilizers that are so poorly built and designed that even a pro can't deliver consistently good results.

A novice with no training is almost guaranteed to have crappy results, even with a good stabilizer. With a crappy stabilizer, double-guaranteed. Hand Eric Clapton a crappy guitar, and he'll fight to keep it in tune and to wring some tonality out of it and will manage to make it sound OK. Hand him a great guitar and he'll make it soar. Hand me Clapton's guitar and it will sound sad and pitiful.

So, maybe (though from the pictures I doubt it) the Chinese stabilizer will be tolerable to operate. Your Steadicam shots will still suck (most of us suck for the first couple of years or more). If you don't think you suck, then you better train your eyes better because other people in the industry CAN see that your Steadicam shots suck and you will lose credibility and slow your career advancement.

I'm not a fulltime Steadicam operator, I also DP and sometimes direct. So I get the desire for doing your own operating. But I take Steadicam operating very seriously and devote a lot of time to practice and study. Why? Because it takes effort and study to master (or even get halfway decent). And because a bad Steadicam shot that is allowed to stay in a film is a sure giveaway of a hack or worse...a poseur. I'd rather design a good shot on sticks than settle for a poorly designed and poorly-executed Steadicam shot.

And everything that people are saying about lack of proper form being the source of most pain, and being dangerous for your back health is absolutely true.

So yeah, hire a pro. Or if you're dying to operate, for God's sake take it seriously. Buy a decent rig and get some training. It amazes me that people want a Steadicam "look" to their shots but are unwilling to spend HALF as much on a stabilizer as on a single prime lens.

Buying a rig like this and calling yourself a steadicam operator is the same as everyone who bought a Red and calling themselves a DP. I think this thread has inspired me to buy a scarlet so I can be a DP. Based on the logic presented in this group buy, it's cheap, so why not?

I'm selling some snake oil, all natural and organic. Shall we start another group buy?

 

[Eli Jarra]

Obviously the level of interest in this thread demonstrates the need for alternate solutions to the pricey professional systems that I myself and others have been longing for, but has been always out of reach.
I'm hoping this could be the time for more affordable solutions come to market... There will always be a place and demand for the high-end systems and talent, but I have a huge thirst for this kind of cinematography in my work and it's something I'd like to learn more about.
Interested in Los Angeles...

 

[David Kellermann]

Joey from camera-video-broadcast.com (CAME) wrote me:

"The packages including:
1 x Metal Vest
1 x Carbon Fiber Stablizer
1 x Support Dual Arm
1 x Base for battery Mount
1 x Base for Monitor
16 X 100g ballance weight
1 x Adjustable plate for handheld stabilizer
1 x portable bag

We are manufacture who producing steadicam, but we do not produce stands and monitor, sorry we can not supply stand and monitor to you.

One more thing, After buyers confirm buy it and payment, we will refund some money to you. we can not telling you how much refund will be. but we can promise it will be lower than 1495USD/set."

Since those aren't the information we are looking for, I'll write him again, asking about photos and a test unit.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Buying a rig like this and calling yourself a steadicam operator is the same as everyone who bought a Red and calling themselves a DP. I think this thread has inspired me to buy a scarlet so I can be a DP. Based on the logic presented in this group buy, it's cheap, so why not?

I'm selling some snake oil, all natural and organic. Shall we start another group buy?

I don't think anyone has equated ownership to ability in this thread. It's just new supply, new demand, like with RED.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Like I said, why are people spending so much money on Red cameras if they're just making glorified home movies? If you're getting REAL work, and it calls for a Steadicam, tell the client what it will cost. It's better than losing a client because your "Steadicam" shots all look handheld, or the fiasco that will ensue when the thing breaks down on set.

Epics and scarlets are cheap as hell.. glorified home movies?
lots of us shoot professionally/work on other peoples projects.. but then we also do our own projects which may be out of pocket..
spielberg shot "glorified home movies" too..

so yes.. it exist..working professionals who also shoot their own projects.. this is where the market exists for these low budget stedicams.. im not sure why so many stedicam guys are on here trying to dissuade people from this? Is it threatening? Ive seen good footage done with these rigs, so i know its possible.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Hello guys, I see its becoming a bit of a battle here, I will just jump in to try and give you a proper view on this.
I have done more than 12 years of steadicam operating , and I have started off renting systems out, at times that steadicams were very heavy and very akward in tecnology to operate, soon I have bought my own SK1, then a provid, then I have jumped in other europian waters,and not only and tested many systems on the market. I have also bought a chinese steadicam Movcam which I have sold after a year. Just to clarify I dont only know how to operate the systems as an operator I also know exactly how they work mechanically and all the different ways of spring arms , gimbals, and so on. I design equipment to start with so Iam very aware of what exists and how it works from the old MK1s to the very new steadicam systems.
The point is guys , there are dirt cheap stabilizers, and very expensive stabilizers. from the dirt cheap chinese make, to the very sophisticated PRO systems. You will be able to pull a smooth shoot with either of those systems IF and only IF you have trained properly as a steadicam operator. To clarify this, if you give a very expensive PRO arm and steadicam with best backmount vest, best viewable screen and so on, to someone who is a camera operator but NOT a steadicam operator, the shoots he will produced will be worst than handheld.
If you give a proffesional steadicam operator a chinese cheap steadicam, after a couple of minutes figuring out its weak points, he will be able to produce a good smooth shot most of the time .
So the point is that its not the machine that makes the shot, its the operators training and experience. So one will ask. why do people spent many 00000 to buy steadicames and not buy a 1500 cheap chinese steadicam instead and make good shots?
First its the same reaon wny a good camera operator doesnt work anymore with betacams. Its also because there is a HUGE difference in the aspects of quality and mechanical precission in between the bottom and top line. Its because someone who does this as a proffession wants to have the best possible system to achieeve the most demanding shots, and at the same time to go home and rest instead going to the doctor to fix his back spline.Because guys YES it does make a HUGE difference if you shoot once a week or once a month, instead of everyday.Also as you already know produccyions when they pay top dollar for a film shoot they expect a steadicam operator to show up with - if not the best system- a good system that covers 100% of the shot. It the same for all equipment.
Many guys in the very near past bought the VERY WELL MADE and EXCELENT stabilizer from Action products. 90% of them sold it after a Year. WHY?? because all those people werent steadicam operators, they thought that since it was cheap enough to buy, and the quality was Top to most Proffesional top systems that they will be able to pull a good shot. They didnt know how hard it is to train, how demanding for your body it is, and loads of other small things that really make a huge difference in this proffesion.So because they couldnt do it from the start, or because they have discovered that they have a back problem, and no determination they understood that its not the GEAR its the OPERATOR.
Of cource if you are determined to train and you like the craft, you will eventually get better and better. and pull good shots. And if you ask 10 operators to suggest whats the best system they will all probably come up with 10 different suggestions as there are MANY GOOD TOP systems now out there, and not only that, but different COMBINATIONS, In between Spring arms, Vests,sleds, etc. So its what suits to who, his body structure, and personal preference.
But no matter what, you have to get trained hard.
Now as far as the chinese cheap systems, yes they might work, No they are not quality made, Yes they do lack in precission on which some parts of the steadicam like the gimbal are very importand, and yes they are made of crap chinese aluminum.
if they work? of cource they CAN work , but on the other hand thats not what defines the shoot.
My advice is , if you want to get it just to add some shots on your personal movies and productions, go get it, then train as much as you can and maybe after a month or two you will be able to pull 30% of the steadicam shots, the easy ones.
the other 70% you will need a lot of more training and a much better device to pull it.
Everything matters. From the squicking connection, to the friction in minimum places, and the more you discover the craft the more you will go into the top gear direction.
Dont fight on whats good or bad unless you know the craft, and unless you know the physics of the equipment.
Even pro operators dont really know the technology behind the different gear.
And also dont come and talk about why top systems are expensive, 90% of them justify their price 100% if you know the technology and can understand it.
and its also inventions and R&D that you pay for and not just copying the original patents not legally. Thats a huge difference in cost. And you should care about it as well.
best regards

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Buying a rig like this and calling yourself a steadicam operator is the same as everyone who bought a Red and calling themselves a DP.

I completely agree, but I also don't see the harm in people buying this rig. Some people will take the time to learn how to get the most out of it. Others won't. I don't think it's any threat to professional operators like you.

 

[Oje Unuigboje]

Buying a rig like this and calling yourself a steadicam operator is the same as everyone who bought a Red and calling themselves a DP. I think this thread has inspired me to buy a scarlet so I can be a DP. Based on the logic presented in this group buy, it's cheap, so why not?

I'm selling some snake oil, all natural and organic. Shall we start another group buy?

Alex, surely you can start your own group buy for snake oil should you choose to.

Personally, I cannot understand why a lot of pro steadicam operators are feeling so threatened by this. Those of us opting for this to join this group buy know exactly why we are joining and not so stupid or unprofessional enough not to understand the value of a great steadicam shot to a production. I think it is enough of these negative and frankly annoying comments and lets get this group buy going in the direction of a buy. Thanks

 

[Layi B]

Joey from camera-video-broadcast.com (CAME) wrote me:

"The packages including:
1 x Metal Vest
1 x Carbon Fiber Stablizer
1 x Support Dual Arm
1 x Base for battery Mount
1 x Base for Monitor
16 X 100g ballance weight
1 x Adjustable plate for handheld stabilizer
1 x portable bag

Can we lobby to get the hard case pictured at the bottom here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15kg-Load...757?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ce9faa2d

rather than the soft case pictured here?:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15kg-Load...475?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d885b81b

Also, can we clarify that the monitor base is adjustable (and located in the middle of the pole, rather than the bottom sled area?)

Can he just send pictures of the exact items since we are all confused about what we are actually getting (Items pictured are not matching deliverables)?

Also, it seems that they are not guarunteeing a price? I don't think that's really acceptable. If we deliver 75-100 buyers, shouldn't we get a firm discounted price in return?

Thanks again for all your efforts, David.

 

[David Kellermann]

Can we lobby to get the hard case pictured at the bottom here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15kg-Load...757?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20ce9faa2d

rather than the soft case pictured here?:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-15kg-Load...475?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d885b81b

Also, can we clarify that the monitor base is adjustable (and located in the middle of the pole, rather than the bottom sled area?)

Can he just send pictures of the exact items since we are all confused about what we are actually getting (Items pictured are not matching deliverables)?

Also, it seems that they are not guarunteeing a price? I don't think that's really acceptable. If we deliver 75-100 buyers, shouldn't we get a firm discounted price in return?

Thanks again for all your efforts, David.

I asked him about a hard case, but he didn't wrote anything about it in the mail. The same about the photos. I'll write him later again. Other than a lower price, I really want a unit reviewed by some steadicam op. Instead of a lower price, we should maybe ask for some changes in the design based on the review.

 

[david_winters]

I asked him about a hard case, but he didn't wrote anything about it in the mail. The same about the photos. I'll write him later again. Other than a lower price, I really want a unit reviewed by some steadicam op. Instead of a lower price, we should maybe ask for some changes in the design based on the review.

I have the model with the hard case. The sled only fits when 1/2 of the base is removed, which is two small screws. I'm afraid to remove the base too many times as the treads are tapped in soft aluminum and will strip eventually. The rod base, on the group buy model, appears to be a slighter longer vertical dimension, which I don't think will fit in the existing hard case. Plus the mid post monitor bracket will need to be removed to case.

 

[David Kellermann]

Anyone ever used one of those systems? eemov and Floatcam both showed interest in a group buy. No info yet from MOVcam.

Floatcam FC-14

eemov Hawk Ultra Pro

MOVcam Knight 202 and Avant S

And some more info Tomas from eemov sent me:

"The EG-12 sled:

- Complete aluminium structure
- Fully tool-free adjustment
- Built-in quick release adaptor
- Telescopic structure
- Super smooth gimbal movements
- Double V-lock battery mount
- Built-in BNC/BNC-HDSDI connectors
- Built-in 3-pin LEMO connector
- Full HDSDI and LEMO wiring
- D-tap wiring
- Non-tool adjustable gimbal
- Closed lenght: 707 mm
- Maximum lenght: 1207 mm
- Quick release sliding plate dimensions: 220×60 mm
- New gimbal unit
- X-Y axe positioning on one side

The ESR-2b double arm (PRO & ULTRA family):

- For heavier equipment (from 2 kg up to 8 kg camera weight, 15 kg arm load in total)
- Tougher springs and milled arm parts for heavy duty usage (consoles, docking unit, connectors)
- Modified spring adjustment"

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Anyone ever used one of those systems? eemov and Floatcam both showed interest in a group buy. No info yet from MOVcam.

Floatcam FC-14

eemov Hawk Ultra Pro

MOVcam Knight 202 and Avant S

All of these are much more expensive and only the "hawk" holds 15kg and it's $5200.

Floatcam = $9700
Knight 202 = $9500
Avant S = $6500

Even with a discount I think most people will bail.

 

[Mike P.]

I was under the impression that the reason people's backs got screwed up was because the cameras used to weigh 50+lbs minimum and the operator had to lean back to compensate for the weight (when mounted on the front). If the Epic/Scarlet are pared down to ~10-15lbs during flying, wouldn't you be far less likely to screw your back up from a front-mounted arm/vest?

Similarly, would it not be a simple mod to mount the arm to the back? As long as it's fixed, I can't imagine the ~10-15lbs being so mis-aligned that it throws off the entire distribution. Or could you not just buy a vest with rear-mounted arm and attach the cheap arm/sled to that?

 

[David Kellermann]

All of these are much more expensive and only the "hawk" holds 15kg and it's $5200.

With 70+ units, the price becomes very negotiable. Also I'm not saying it has to be exactly one of those units. It might be a good option for a small and not so well known manufacturer to create a reduser model based on one of his previous units. We could suggests aspects that are essential for us and define what price we're willing to pay and he can get his R&D costs back by selling so many units. Also, what better advertising might there be than to sell to so many talented cameramen who undoubtedly will create some nice looking pictures using their stabilization system + word of mouth advertisement, if the product is good?

 

[Sebastian_A]

I'm not sure about the others but my price range is in the 1200 - 1500 $ . I don't think I'm willing to pay much more than this.

 

[Alan Rencher]

I was under the impression that the reason people's backs got screwed up was because the cameras used to weigh 50+lbs minimum and the operator had to lean back to compensate for the weight (when mounted on the front). If the Epic/Scarlet are pared down to ~10-15lbs during flying, wouldn't you be far less likely to screw your back up from a front-mounted arm/vest?

Similarly, would it not be a simple mod to mount the arm to the back? As long as it's fixed, I can't imagine the ~10-15lbs being so mis-aligned that it throws off the entire distribution. Or could you not just buy a vest with rear-mounted arm and attach the cheap arm/sled to that?

You can screw your back with almost no weight added to a rig. If you aren't using the correct posture, or if the weight is not properly distributed on your body, you will start having back pains after 10 minutes in the rig. This is why professional operators can have lasting careers shooting with heavy cameras: they know what they are doing, and the engineering that goes into professional rigs is top-notch. This is another thing to look for in these reverse-engineered knock-offs.