Scarlet 2.0

[Eric Santiago]

Its frustrating to continually hear and read threads from people who have bought a Scarlet and think they should have the same specs as an EPIC for $11k cheaper - why???

You wont hear that from me.
I know what I got when I bought my Scarlet.
I've been on this forum for many years starting with the RED MX.
I think most need to be educated before making statements.
I honestly think that some of the shit disturbers are non owners.
Im for kickin tires but damn dont piss where you sleep

 

[Steve Johnson]

Huh? They wouldn't have same specs. I said that they should update Scarlet when EPIC is updated to Dragon.

But at the moment, if they tried to update the Scarlet to EPIC specs, then it would probably cost more than if you buy an EPIC - that's what Jarred is saying at the moment, it might be cheaper.

If you want EPIC specs in a Scarlet, even when Dragon is available for EPIC, then it will probably still cost you. You can't get EPIC specs in a Scarlet with the current interiors and boards in the Scarlet, no matter what.

 

[Steve Johnson]

You wont hear that from me.
I know what I got when I bought my Scarlet.
I've been on this forum for many years starting with the RED MX.
I think most need to be educated before making statements.
I honestly think that some of the shit disturbers are non owners.
Im for kickin tires but damn dont piss where you sleep

That's great to hear Eric. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of Scarlet owners and their all very happy. They know what they've got and how to use it.

I've used a Scarlet and its an amazing camera, and actually cuts in with EPIC footage brilliantly. We use it as a B camera sometimes and its brilliant.

I agree with what you say

 

[Josh Snyder]

But at the moment, if they tried to update the Scarlet to EPIC specs, then it would probably cost more than if you buy an EPIC - that's what Jarred is saying at the moment, it might be cheaper.

If you want EPIC specs in a Scarlet, even when Dragon is available for EPIC, then it will probably still cost you. You can't get EPIC specs in a Scarlet with the current interiors and boards in the Scarlet, no matter what.

Of course they shouldn't update it now, but after the EPIC has got Dragon update. We know Scarlet is going to get some kind of update and this is one of the good options.

Other options are either Scarlet goes away and EPIC-X is the new "low end" model or Scarlet is going to be firmware crippled Dragon EPIC.

 

[Adam Johnson]

If RED is as generous as before with the Red One trade in program, the best option would be to offer a similar trade-in program for Scarlet owners to trade their Scarlet-X (Body Only) for a credit of the original price they paid for the Scarlet body only (or the current Scarlet-X body price) then it is up to YOU to put up the remaining amount of money to upgrade to either Epic or Epic Dragon.

Facts - Price of Epic-X body is now $19K - Epic-X to Dragon upgrade is $6K - Scarlet (Body only) is currently worth just under $8K

I think it is feasible, honest, and damn right insanely generous if RED were to offer Scarlet owners a chance to upgrade to the big brother by paying the difference of whatever you originally paid via trade-in. So most people would be looking at a $10-11K upgrade price to Epic-X and $17K-ish to Epic Dragon. But this once again makes another camera EOL..... but then I know lots of happy campers will be waiting for BT Scarlet-X for $3.5K in a couple years down the road ;-)

I don't think it makes much sense to upgrade the Scarlet camera to Dragon even at 4 or 5K because they would still have to core out the insides, move boards around, replace ASICs, etc. to bring it up to Dragon 4 or 5K. That would still cost in the same neighborhood as upgrading to Epic-X. Yes, I understand you wouldn't get the Dragon DR, resolution, frame rates, etc. but it is still a BIG leap from Scarlet-X. You would be at 5K, 5k 120 fps, and you know the rest of the story.

 

[Steve Johnson]

Of course they shouldn't update it now, but after the EPIC has got Dragon update. We know Scarlet is going to get some kind of update and this is one of the good options.

Other options are either Scarlet goes away and EPIC-X is the new "low end" model or Scarlet is going to be firmware crippled Dragon EPIC.

Given that Scarlets interiors would have to be updated and "could" cost more than if you simply upgraded to EPIC, I wouldn't be surprised if EPIC becomes the new Scarlet. I am sure RED will squeeze anything and everything out of the Scarlet as I think its a great camera, especially for the price.

Here's my wacky thought for the future - EPIC gets Dragon, current owner pay for sensor upgrade and new EPIC owners buy EPIC with Dragon sensor. Scarlet gets whatever RED squeeze out of the camera and offer hardware upgrade if possible. If hardware upgrade is cost prohibited, then EOL Scarlet and EPIC's entry level price point drops - however, I don't think it will drop by much given that the current price point is what RED have dropped to after their costs have been recouped.

 

[Steve Johnson]

If RED is as generous as before with the Red One trade in program, the best option would be to offer a similar trade-in program for Scarlet owners to trade their Scarlet-X (Body Only) for a credit of the original price they paid for the Scarlet body only (or the current Scarlet-X body price) then it is up to YOU to put up the remaining amount of money to upgrade to either Epic or Epic Dragon.

Facts - Price of Epic-X body is now $19K - Epic-X to Dragon upgrade is $6K - Scarlet (Body only) is currently worth just under $8K

I think it is feasible, honest, and damn right insanely generous if RED were to offer Scarlet owners a chance to upgrade to the big brother by paying the difference of whatever you originally paid via trade-in. So most people would be looking at a $10-11K upgrade price to Epic-X and $17K-ish to Epic Dragon. But this once again makes another camera EOL..... but then I know lots of happy campers will be waiting for BT Scarlet-X for $3.5K in a couple years down the road ;-)

I don't think it makes much sense to upgrade the Scarlet camera to Dragon even at 4 or 5K because they would still have to core out the insides, move boards around, replace ASICs, etc. to bring it up to Dragon 4 or 5K. That would still cost in the same neighborhood as upgrading to Epic-X. Yes, I understand you wouldn't get the Dragon DR, resolution, frame rates, etc. but it is still a BIG leap from Scarlet-X. You would be at 5K, 5k 120 fps, and you know the rest of the story.

Adam,

Love to agree with you, but I am not sure that RED will offer anything similar to the full trade in cost on future upgrades. I think that was just a one off. I might be wrong, but I think going from "vapour-ware" RED One to EPIC was a huge leap and that's the reward to those that believed at the beginning. I think the safest assumption is to expect nothing.

I expect an upgrade path where RED design it that way - hence Obsolescence Obsolete. But there becomes a point where as a company and business sense, RED can't keep offering full trade in price for used gear. But there again, I could be wrong!!!

)

 

[Björn Benckert]

Think this upgrading stuff is quite odd reasoning. Use ebay or this forum instead, sell your scarlet and buy a new camera when you think the time is right. Using RED as a camera trader is not really good for anyone, not for red, you or the second owner. The only one that benefits is fedex.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I could not agree more Steve!!!

Red has already been generous enough with upgrading users from the Red One to Epic...and you are right it is not the same circumstances this time around as Scarlet has the same Epic body. It is safest to assume nothing, but Jarred and Jim have already said they will have "some" option whether it be upgrading Scarlet insides or having a trade-in program. Should be interesting to watch from the sidelines

Adam,

Love to agree with you, but I am not sure that RED will offer anything similar to the full trade in cost on future upgrades. I think that was just a one off. I might be wrong, but I think going from "vapour-ware" RED One to EPIC was a huge leap and that's the reward to those that believed at the beginning. I think the safest assumption is to expect nothing.

I expect an upgrade path where RED design it that way - hence Obsolescence Obsolete. But there becomes a point where as a company and business sense, RED can't keep offering full trade in price for used gear. But there again, I could be wrong!!!

)

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Its frustrating to continually hear and read threads from people who have bought a Scarlet and think they should have the same specs as an EPIC for $11k cheaper - why???

I don't think he even owns a Scarlet.

Correct me if I'm wrong Josh.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Haha yes I agree with that wholeheartedly!

Think this upgrading stuff is quite odd reasoning. Use ebay or this forum instead, sell your scarlet and buy a new camera when you think the time is right. Using RED as a camera trader is not really good for anyone, not for red, you or the second owner. The only one that benefits is fedex.

 

[Steve Johnson]

I could not agree more Steve!!!

Red has already been generous enough with upgrading users from the Red One to Epic...and you are right it is not the same circumstances this time around as Scarlet has the same Epic body. It is safest to assume nothing, but Jarred and Jim have already said they will have "some" option whether it be upgrading Scarlet insides or having a trade-in program. Should be interesting to watch from the sidelines

It will be interesting to see what happens here Adam. Expect nothing and if something comes along, then great. Unless Jim / Jarred say that something is upgradable, e.g. EPIC from MX to Dragon, then I expect nothing. I bought the camera I wanted. It does more for me than I think I need and has turned my business round and I make good money doing what I love.

I hope there is some sort of upgrade for Scarlet owners to Dragon, but personally, I think it will be a camera upgrade rather than a boards upgrade...

)

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

It's clear some want access to an Epic. I did for along time. I didn't take the most conventional route getting it but I knew what I needed and worked my Scarlet as hard as I could to help me get an Epic. If I needed an Epic i'd find a way to rent one, or get on a shoot that had one.

The best thing you can do if you want your Scarlet to be more than it is... Make connections. When I got my Scarlet I met a bunch of great people in and around Colorado and some outside that are good members on here such as Zac Crosby, Wade Yamaguchi, James Drake, Jon Firestone, Ken Hendricks, Pax, just to name a few. The thing I found is the knowledge I acquired while owning the Scarlet was amazing. You can grow so much from working with others and feeding off one another.

In my line of work I found the Epic to pretty much be what I needed. So I pulled strings to make it happen. But I deffintely made do with the Scarlet for the time being and the results I got still went over well with those I provided the footage too.

Make your camera work for you. RED released a product and continuously makes it better. Is it fun to speculate, guess and hope for more out of it? YES. But the times I just forgot about the wants I found contentness in the Scarlet and i'd find I'd shoot better and be happier with the results. In the end I still wanted to have an Epic for what I did so I decided my upgrade path was well...to get an Epic. RED made that achievable. Make your Scarlet work hard, build a network, find other shooters to go on gigs with and you'll find quickly the camera can work wonders for you.

If there are any members on here that want to Rent an Epic, if mine is free i'd be more than willing to offer a good price to help specifically Scarlet users that are on tighter budgets because I know how it is when you need a boost in frame rates and really can't do anything about it on some projects. Please reach out to me and I'd be happy to help if I don't have it out already!

 

[Adam Johnson]

Jeffrey - congrats on the Epic!!! I had no idea you purchased one awesome dude!

 

[Lliam Worthington]

These threads do have a history of being pretty disastrous, but there's some good posts emerging on here also I think.

I tend to agree with Bjorn that even with RED's history, the trade in route doesn't make too much sense to me, as I'm not sure why it would be worth RED's while to buy back Scarlets and give back discount Epics? Not trying to nay say. Happy to be educated. And know a lot of people have expressed interest in this.

Josh's idea to replace Scarlet boards with old epic ones has been mentioned before, but the time and labour costs to do this would surely be an issue? Unless RED wants to take a financial hit on our behalf, it would have to cost MORE in total to have a Scarlet converted to an Epic than just buying an Epic, not less. I also think the timeline for something like this would have to be pretty problematic? Especially in a market place shifting so quickly.

I think Steve's idea of RED just trying to squeeze whatever they can makes sense. But that's on the proviso anything is possible to be squeezed. I also feel as Nick, that better DR and low light performance would trump high frame rates for me.

So imho, at the end of the day, I think a Dragon Scarlet upgrade struggles to make much sense as it's trying to dance between two different cameras with two very different price points.

So perhaps a different sensor than the Dragon for Scarlet might be a consideration? One that could give better DR and or low light, but like the epic wouldn't require a change of boards to become functional? Perhaps this would also allow the upgrade path to be more attainable to it's user base price wise as I'd imagine even 6K would be a significant stretch for a lot of Scarlet owners. Which I'll note (as I don't like being boxed on here as some are want to do) is not overly a concern for me, I plan on an epic when needed, but I'm a bit of an egalitarian, and feel it would be certainly less than ideal if the bulk of a user base couldn't afford their cameras upgrade path.

Oh and Jeffrey cool story and great post. Sounds like you've had a great year!

Best
Lliam

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Thanks Adam and Lliam! It was interesting to say the least. Still have a hard time clicking the Epic part of the board. I'm so used to coming here

 

[Nick Morrison]

These threads do have a history of being pretty disastrous, but there's some good posts emerging on here also I think.

I tend to agree with Bjorn that even with RED's history, the trade in route doesn't make too much sense to me, as I'm not sure why it would be worth RED's while to buy back Scarlets and give back discount Epics? Not trying to nay say. Happy to be educated. And know a lot of people have expressed interest in this.

Josh's idea to replace Scarlet boards with old epic ones has been mentioned before, but the time and labour costs to do this would surely be an issue? Unless RED wants to take a financial hit on our behalf, it would have to cost MORE in total to have a Scarlet converted to an Epic than just buying an Epic, not less. I also think the timeline for something like this would have to be pretty problematic? Especially in a market place shifting so quickly.

I think Steve's idea of RED just trying to squeeze whatever they can makes sense. But that's on the proviso anything is possible to be squeezed. I also feel as Nick, that better DR and low light performance would trump high frame rates for me.

So imho, at the end of the day, I think a Dragon Scarlet upgrade struggles to make much sense as it's trying to dance between two different cameras with two very different price points.

So perhaps a different sensor than the Dragon for Scarlet might be a consideration? One that could give better DR and or low light, but like the epic wouldn't require a change of boards to become functional? Perhaps this would also allow the upgrade path to be more attainable to it's user base price wise as I'd imagine even 6K would be a significant stretch for a lot of Scarlet owners. Which I'll note (as I don't like being boxed on here as some are want to do) is not overly a concern for me, I plan on an epic when needed, but I'm a bit of an egalitarian, and feel it would be certainly less than ideal if the bulk of a user base couldn't afford their cameras upgrade path.

Oh and Jeffrey cool story and great post. Sounds like you've had a great year!

Best
Lliam

Very nicely summed up Lliam. Classy as always, my friend. Happy Holidays to you down under!

 

[Lliam Worthington]

Thanks Nick, right back at you. Hope you and yours have a wonderful xmas.

 

[Robert Hart]

It is a little confounding, maybe ironic how things come around in a loop. I seem to recall years ago when Noah was a pup and I looked up to him, that there was a similar conversation about the Sony HDV brothers, the consumer FX1 and the prosumer Z1. They went along the lines of :-

Could the said-to-be otherwise identical FX1 be hacked via firmware to perform as a Z1 with the extra goodies like allscan mode for the viewfinder, PAL and NTSC compatable framerates, even 24P from someone who compared the sensor pixel counts of the Sony and gamechanging JVC GY-HD100.

Another rumour-has-it was - there existed a two-tier quality and grading process relating to critical components. - the prism/sensor array for the Z1 had to meet more stringent optical alignment limits. Does that ring a few familiar bells in the current topic.


So far as I know, nobody ever hacked their FX1 to Z1 specs and had their camera live with improved functionality for it to be boasted about. There was however an enterprising soul who did modify an FX1 to mount removable lenses. To what real purpose one was moved to ponder, when the other functional benefits of the built-in lens were lost or defeated.

With the new high volume, higher quality assured production line now in place, I doubt whether labour-intensive hotting up of Scarletts to Epic specs by receiving inbound shipment, opening up, re-assuring as to quality, the existing "used" parts to remain in service and retrofitting upgraded components will be financially viable for the factory or the owner.

It might become so for a specialised third party but only if RED would sanction it by delegative licence or whatever and let the parts go out the door beyond their own quality assurance process. I don't think the existing product line will remain extant long enough for this to be a viable business plan.

RED may either become the latest feather duster or move into a Generation 3 system that loses the competitors a bit more skin and hair. The competitors have been doing a bit of track work, shedding a bit of fat and are more fit and motivated than they were before RED came along and undid the wheelnuts on their wagon of assumed privelidge. They will be faster and using their feet this time round.

Selling user-refurbishment kits will not happen as there is a grievous nightmare of after-sales service associated with that trick. As an analogy, how many home-mechanicked hotted up cars do not go CLANK and stop before their allotted lifetime.


When I enquired as to a then rumoured 2K 35mm sized sensor version of the SI2K Mini head, I was advised that anything was possible but at a price. The sustainability of that price in a given available market and the risk whether the investment in making it happen will yield a profit is another matter. Benefactors are bound by practical limits of providence. How much can the RED enterprise afford to give away.

The business plan became that the Scarlett version of the product platform is the entry-level model. If RED decide upon a limited upgrade path to keep it representative of the upgraded EPIC, then that is about as good as one can justly expect it to be. Converting Scarletts into superseded Epics would not be much of a business plan as the core business would be severely cannibalised.


There you go. That is my bit of speculative mischief.