Attitude adjustment...

[Jason Diamond]

We all need an "attitude adjustment" every once in awhile. Right?

Jim

Agreed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwlm9cxbY_M

I'm on the train, might be able to even add a new car to that train. This trains been riding hard for 6 years and keeps getting better. Luckily I have a lot of people that want to pay to ride the train.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

So no disrespect, but can someone from RED explain the logic behind this a little more?

Why cut the prices in almost half for Epics?

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

People have false expectations about camera prices, because the whole game has been rigged for decades, by companies like Sony, Canon, and Pansonic. Sony always floated their overpriced cameras by suppressing technology in lower-priced cameras. Or with Canon, they slowly trickle out technology, just enough to force people to buy the next model. It's all rigged and manipulated. What Red is doing is closer to the high-end PC market, where fast-moving technology dictates the pace and price of changes more directly.

Word.

Tom totally gets it.

What RED have done is bring some honesty and reality to the marketplace. This, it seems, is hurting some people. This is the flip side of of RED bringing the R1 to market at $17k when Sony prices were $200k+ - they brought honesty then, and they've brought more honesty today. Yes this honesty is disruptive too, in a way some people don't like - and I understand why. But folks won't ever again make the mistake of equating or comparing a digital camera purchase with a stock market investment. I don't mean to sound smug, I know some people won't like hearing this, but it's true: that isn't a mistake I ever made.

Mike

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

wow, looks like red sold out of all the red one with cf over night...

It was gone from the store within a couple of hours of going up; I think they only had a handful.

Mike

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

So no disrespect, but can someone from RED explain the logic behind this a little more?

Why cut the prices in almost half for Epics?

very simple. Red has finished its ROI. Red has learned to make the components of the cameras faster and cheaper. Thus the cameras now cost far less for Red to actually produce. They had 2 choices, either to keep the same price and make a huge killing on unethical profit margins, or lower the price and keep their profit margins honest and small enough so it's still a similar ratio to what it was before.

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

It was gone from the store within a couple of hours of going up; I think they only had a handful.

Mike

This is good, hopefully what this means is that the used market for Reds will stay higher than $4000 and the 4k battletested r1's can be just viewed as a fluke or good gesture from Reds. Hopefully the people selling their second hand R1's can still hawk them for 8-10k as has been the case recently.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

very simple. Red has finished its ROI. Red has learned to make the components of the cameras faster and cheaper. Thus the cameras now cost far less for Red to actually produce. They had 2 choices, either to keep the same price and make a huge killing on unethical profit margins, or lower the price and keep their profit margins honest and small enough so it's still a similar ratio to what it was before.

Obviously, but it's doing a lot more than just helping people buy Epics. And such a drastic price cut out of the blue?

I would understand if they slowly started lowering it, but just doesn't seem like it's the only reason.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Hey Michael, the competition is heating up finally. Sony has finally shown up, Canon has the C500, and Panasonic will undoubtably show something at NAB. I would expect the pricing to reflect all this disruption.

Obviously, but it's doing a lot more than just helping people buy Epics. And such a drastic price cut out of the blue?

I would understand if they slowly started lowering it, but just doesn't seem like it's the only reason.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

Yeah, I get that, but honestly is that what people want?

Let's try to turn off loving RED for a second and think. Honestly, this is a race to the bottom. Who has the best technology and how low can they charge.

Im happy for people getting Scarlets and Epics out of this, but this can both help and hurt independent film makers. It will help them by giving them the tools for a low price so they can make a movie! It can hurt by giving them tools at a low price so they can make a shit movie, and make it that much harder for someone with talent to get discovered.

Obviously this has been going on for a long time, and will continue to do so, it just seems very left field to cut your prices 50%.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Obviously, but it's doing a lot more than just helping people buy Epics. And such a drastic price cut out of the blue?

I would understand if they slowly started lowering it, but just doesn't seem like it's the only reason.

To make a statement to the competition and get more people into the "ecosystem". I'm sure they want to grow their userbase before the next phase which will bring REDRAY, their Projectors and hopeful widespread use of their new delivery codec. I'm also sure they get great satisfaction "mindfucking" the competition and industry in general

It's not a race to the bottom. They have been and are forcing a shift in price equilibrium. That said a RED ONE MX was $25k and an Epic Dragon will be the same.

 

[Mike P.]

It's only a race to the bottom if Sony announce $5000 F5s and $10k F55s... with RAW recorders being $1000. They won't... but they could.

 

[Brian Boyer]

I mentioned this in another thread but it bears repeating here...

RED introduced a 4K raw camera for $17,500. Let me say that again because I don't think people understand its significance.

RED introduced a 4K raw camera for $17,500. That was when other cameras aimed at digital cinema were $150K and up and 1080p.

Some people have suggested RED is in a race to the bottom. That's ridiculous. $17,500 is where they started.

How was this not a sign of things to come? RED's position has always been they were going to provide people with the best quality they can (at the moment) at the lowest price they can.

That people were assuming prices were going to continue to hover in the $40K range for Epic means they weren't paying close enough attention.

When Jim said they were ready for a fight, why is it so hard to believe part of that fight meant aggressive pricing? After all, they did it once before.

Do it once and you're the maverick of the industry. Do it twice and you're in financial trouble?

Of course lowering the price is partially in response to what competitors are doing. But as long as Dragon brings the heat, expect to see this type of one-upsmanship on features and pricing by everyone.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Yeah, I get that, but honestly is that what people want?

Let's try to turn off loving RED for a second and think. Honestly, this is a race to the bottom. Who has the best technology and how low can they charge.

Im happy for people getting Scarlets and Epics out of this, but this can both help and hurt independent film makers. It will help them by giving them the tools for a low price so they can make a movie! It can hurt by giving them tools at a low price so they can make a shit movie, and make it that much harder for someone with talent to get discovered.

Obviously this has been going on for a long time, and will continue to do so, it just seems very left field to cut your prices 50%.

Well, you are likely in the more rarified strata of "talent," so there shouldn't be much to worry about. Just keep doing your thing. Yeah, there will be a lot of bad stuff out there...but so what? Hollywood has been charging exorbitant prices to watch often atrocious, spoon fed nonsense for decades. It's cool.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

To make a statement to the competition and get more people into the "ecosystem". I'm sure they want to grow their userbase before the next phase which will bring REDRAY and their Projectors. I'm also sure they get great satisfaction "mindfucking" the competition and industry in general

I totally get that, and it could be a great business strategy, but it could also get companies real pissed, and those companies, for example ARRI, have followers out the ass that will be off put by this.

I think the state that RED is at is very fragile. They are just now starting to get people more interested in them and building a great client base. Cutting the prices in half has made a lot of people upset who are clients. But in exchange are getting clients as well.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

To make a statement to the competition and get more people into the "ecosystem". I'm sure they want to grow their userbase before the next phase which will bring REDRAY, their Projectors and hopeful widespread use of their new delivery codec. I'm also sure they get great satisfaction "mindfucking" the competition and industry in general

It's not a race to the bottom. They have been and are forcing a shift in price equilibrium. That said a RED ONE MX was $25k and an Epic Dragon will be the same.

Brilliance.

And this has nothing to do with mindlessly supporting RED. The sheer thought that someone would suggest that about me, or anyone else here, is really crazy. These guys earned all the adulation. And I find it hard to understand how others aren't seeing it.

 

[Bob Gundu]

How can cheaper prices force someone to make a shit movie? If the talent isn't there, they would have made the same mistake on the Alexa. To be honest, flooding the market with shitty movies actually makes the good ones stand out even more.

Lets suppose RED did nothing with the prices and stayed at close to double of the competition. The market mindset is such that it compares features to .01 decimal. I know it's crazy but the amount of pixel peeping that goes on drives me nuts. Marketing is powerful and if you miss the initial wave and get left behind, it hurts big time. So, I think RED did the right thing. The last few days people have been getting pretty excited by the new offerings by Sony. You can't deny its a real competitor to Epic. If you want people to really compare the two cameras, you can't be in left field on pricing. As for slowly reducing price over time is a bad idea. You'll never sell because you never know how low it's going to go. A house priced to high that slowly reduces prices over time really hurts the sale. A clean cut was the only way to go. No guessing.... this is the way it is... and move on. It has worked. I'm sure there will be many new sales for Scarlet and Epic, hell.. even Red One. I know it may sting for some, but it really was for the greater good.

Yeah, I get that, but honestly is that what people want?

Let's try to turn off loving RED for a second and think. Honestly, this is a race to the bottom. Who has the best technology and how low can they charge.

Im happy for people getting Scarlets and Epics out of this, but this can both help and hurt independent film makers. It will help them by giving them the tools for a low price so they can make a movie! It can hurt by giving them tools at a low price so they can make a shit movie, and make it that much harder for someone with talent to get discovered.

Obviously this has been going on for a long time, and will continue to do so, it just seems very left field to cut your prices 50%.

 

[Chad Bonanno]

WONDERFUL NEWS.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Cutting the prices in half has made a lot of people upset who are clients. But in exchange are getting clients as well.

It's a bold decision and I think it's definitely the right one. We'll see how it all plays out over the next year or so. I have a feeling that those who are upset will feel much better about things once Dragon is released.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

Let me clarify, im not calling anyone out as mindless fanboys.

Also Bob, when people make a lot of movies that are shit, it makes it harder on everyone else. Sure, if someone actually gives you the chance and watches your film and it's better, then that's a different story. But it's so easy to pass up films in this era because people lump them together into being amateur and bad. That is a fact.

Also, cheaper prices mean less work trying to find funding. They can rent an Epic for a week at 800 or they can get an Alexa for 800 a day.... Obviously cheaper prices mean more people can make movies and have the "SHOT ON RED" logo there.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Have any of you rental houses considered that you may actually get more rentals from all the other stuff that is required to make a good picture. Sure DPs may have their own camera, but many don't own their own lights and lenses etc?

I don't know about you, but every time I head into my local rental house to pick up a set of primes, an FF-4 and OConnor head, I get a sad look from the techs.... owner operators coming in for piecemeal kits do not help rental houses. I highly doubt DuAll enjoys renting me a few filters, an EVF mount, an FF-4 and an OConnor head when back in the day you picked up an SR2 package with everything.