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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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patrickortman said:
Prediction: No more Scarlets. Epic now costs what a Scarlet did.

(ducking thrown objects)

Why?

Because by now I'm sure RED has gone through all those "not quite good enough" ASICs, and I bet they have to cripple the boards themselves now to put out Scarlets. It's putting a speed regulator on a Ferrari, and has to be distasteful to Jim and Jarred.

And because it's fun to speculate on wild shit.
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There is no such thing as a production process that does not yield below-spec chips. That is simply impossible. Usually those chips end up in a landfill, Red has taken a much more environmental and clever approach.

As for those who say "Some of us have rental houses, but some of us are just Filmmakers!"

No, we are all rental houses. You charge rental to your clients for your own productions. Even if you are doing a feature as an indy producer, you charge the Epic rental within the budget.

The only people here who own an Epic and would not be negatively affected by a price drop (whether they realize it or not) are people who are not existing Red customers and hobbyists.

All working owner-operators will see a revenue drop for the camera gear rental side of their business - which again, is part of ANY client bill, including those on which you are a D.O.P - as large as the size of the drop.

Even if you throw in your Epic for free, the perceived value of doing that in your clients eyes is about to go down. If the price drop is huge it will go from WOW THANKS!!! to "Uh, yeah, thanks I guess, but that's what all Epic owners do now." (If the price drop is reasonable, it will not change.)

If that's what "All Epic owners do now", it will become harder for those with not enough money to buy a camera and who have to rent for gigs to build a career - because they have to spend money on day rentals to compete with free.

This will mean a less democratic environment for young filmmakers, one very difficult unless you have rich parents to buy you a cam.

All told this is not a simple matter with simple repercussions.

I do not envy Jim in his extremely difficult decision today.
 
Mike P. said:
Have any prices (Sony's or RED's) been announced yet?
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No mike. don't hold your breath I don't think we'll be hearing prices today. Sony was supposed to announce yesterday but they didn't. and with a February release date I'm not sure they have to announce until December when Preorders start. I'm not sure RED is going to make a decision without knowing all the facts first. but hey you never know they could try to throw the first punch.
 
I am actually enjoying this debate, there aren't any punches being thrown around at members of the community, and all of the posts have to do with the actual point instead of bitter kicks to the groin... Which would especially suck for me right now, since I just got back from a Vasectomy procedure.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Sorry but do not agree!

RED has the blockbusters to document their production quality, but has a much more volume oriented userbase than ARRI.
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If you delve into the point you are making a bit deeper, you will see that the blockbusters had the budget/capacity to handle the complexities of the RED workflow. They probably never erase any of the media recorded. Ever.

This advantage they have is the advantage RED needs to bring down to the rest of us. That can be done by lowering costs across the solution pipeline. The Meizler module, RED Rocket 2, media, accessories etc. Reducing the cost of the brain alone will never make any impact to these blockbuster productions, nor will it make any difference to existing RED EPIC owners (some make the case here that the impact would be negative, but let's set that aside for now).

What will make a difference is reducing the cost of the solution. Acquisition to delivery. RED is already doing that with a free REDCineX. But other elements are prohibitively expensive. Making those affordable will help the entire RED ecosystem thrive. And what a thriving RED ecosystem will do for us all is, as they say in the mastercard commercial, priceless.
 
Agree that the razorblades are pretty expensive, even with the recent price cut. But I have no idea what kind of work goes into manu for the SSDs, not to mention R&D. Seems like a lot.
 
Jon Jones said:
I am actually enjoying this debate, there aren't any punches being thrown around at members of the community, and all of the posts have to do with the actual point instead of bitter kicks to the groin... Which would especially suck for me right now, since I just got back from a Vasectomy procedure.
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okay but why can't we just realize that the price drop was going to happen in a couple months when Dragon comes out anyway? I mean it wasn't like the new Dragon was going to enter the market at $40k or something. that would just make RED not RED. I thought the whole point was to get Cinema quality cameras into people's hands at an affordable price. that's what we ALL fell in love with in the beginning. so Jon and ROB, the Dragon has to come into the market at under $30k or just at that. why? because that's first and foremost RED's Mantra. second because the competition is delivering really good cameras that are ready to shoot (without a lens) for under $30k (power supply included). the whole idea of buying an Epic that I can't even turn on (cause no power supply) for $34k is nuts. I guess and I'm willing to bet it needed to be done in the last two years to keep orders manageable and because of high cost of manufacturing.

rental prices are going to be affected? YES. is this gonna sting for owners of Epic? SURE (how much it stings is up to you). does this have to happen? I think if RED is going to stick to their MANTRA then yes! yes! yes! because if RED is going to price themselves like the big boys (Sony, Canon, Arri) then they will die. RED will die. they will not be able to compete with such power. (financially or marketability). this is a world wide market and no one in asia is gonna shoot on an american camera when the asian one is priced the same. and most other places in the world are also like that. very few have heard of RED everyone knows Sony or Canon. RED has to win the war at home first and the only way to do that is to be affordable. Americans don't splash the cash, they go for what gets the job done at the cheapest price. if all things are equal even Americans choose the stronger brand (sony or canon).

now people who know about cameras and specs and techy speak will argue RED is much better then those other cameras and blah blah blah. I believe it and I know it too. but in a consumers head it's just blah blah blah. will the other camera also get the job done? YES! and there are more cameras that can get the job done coming out soon (canon's 1DC and a cinema camera from Canon that can shoot 4k raw).

so conclusion. IMHO Epic needs to get to $15-$20k and Dragon can not be something that costs over $40k before you can shoot something with it. Dragon Brain and a simple set up ready to shoot has to come in under $40k I think. I also agree with others that modules and Red Rockets need to come down in price also. these other cameras workflows are also beating RED in affordability. and like I said affordability was RED's MANTRA and it now has to get that back.
 
I gotta say... never have I seen anyone so committed to a position of Armageddon than some folks in this thread. What I can't understand is, if a price drop (of a high tech piece of gear, no less) spells so much gloom and doom for certain business activities, why would anyone ever have taken such a risk in the first place. Shit ALWAYS happens. :huh:
 
When we get to 100 pages do balloons and confetti come raining down from the ceiling?

No price has even been announced yet. I own a Canon 5Dmk2, it's going for half of what I paid for it 3-4 years ago. I just don't understand how a company built on shifting the paradigm of digital cinema should be faulted for doing just that.
 
Lawrence Steele said:
Sony F55: 19`000 Euro
Sony F5: 15`000 Euro

http://www.creativeventures.be/sony-pmw- f55-pmwf55.html
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if these prices are true you should keep in mind that Europeans always pay a little bit more then Americans.
these would not be a direct exchange rate for US sales. US prices would look somewhat similar to those. like F5 for $16,500 and F55 for $22k.

but again I'm not sure i would rely on those prices until Sony makes an official announcement.
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
That can be done by lowering costs across the solution pipeline. The Meizler module, RED Rocket 2, media, accessories etc. Reducing the cost of the brain alone will never make any impact to these blockbuster productions, nor will it make any difference to existing RED EPIC owners (some make the case here that the impact would be negative, but let's set that aside for now).

What will make a difference is reducing the cost of the solution. Acquisition to delivery.
Click to expand...

(Y)
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I gotta say... never have I seen anyone so committed to a position of Armageddon than some folks in this thread. What I can't understand is, if a price drop (of a high tech piece of gear, no less) spells so much gloom and doom for certain business activities, why would anyone ever have taken such a risk in the first place. Shit ALWAYS happens. :huh:
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I really like how you simplify things and somehow say exactly what I try to say in my long posts. thank you
 
+1 on that.. Even when you look at the cost of other cameras. What makes Red a bigger investment are the add ons. The price of the Brain is not the issue. I purchased the Scarlet to have enough cash left over to start building the accessories to the point of just having to swap out the Scarlet brain for and Epic. The price drop plays in my favour but not if the perceived value of the package goes down.
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
What will make a difference is reducing the cost of the solution. Acquisition to delivery. RED is already doing that with a free REDCineX. But other elements are prohibitively expensive. Making those affordable will help the entire RED ecosystem thrive. And what a thriving RED ecosystem will do for us all is, as they say in the mastercard commercial, priceless.
Click to expand...

you're right and wrong i feel. sure bringing the price down on modules and red rockets would help everybody. but I think they are aiming to get more cameras in people's hands. and considering you can get all the work done that you need without a module or a red rocket (i've been working without them just fine, of course slower then others who have them) dropping those prices might not really have the big impact that getting more Epics out in the world would. also consider this. More Epics out in the world = more sales of modules and Red Rockets = cheaper prices on those add ons. they can't drop the module and rocket price cause the volume is too low. if everyone ordered one who owned an Epic that's still under x amount of orders. if X was a much higher number like double it is now, the Rocket and Module price would have to be lower.
 
Your only saying that so that the EPIC can be in your price range, so that you can buy one. Hey man for your sakes, and others in your position I'm glad the price is going down. But for my sakes and people in my position I'm not glad.

John semikian said:
okay but why can't we just realize that the price drop was going to happen in a couple months when Dragon comes out anyway? I mean it wasn't like the new Dragon was going to enter the market at $40k or something. that would just make RED not RED. I thought the whole point was to get Cinema quality cameras into people's hands at an affordable price. that's what we ALL fell in love with in the beginning. so Jon and ROB, the Dragon has to come into the market at under $30k or just at that. why? because that's first and foremost RED's Mantra. second because the competition is delivering really good cameras that are ready to shoot (without a lens) for under $30k (power supply included). the whole idea of buying an Epic that I can't even turn on (cause no power supply) for $34k is nuts. I guess and I'm willing to bet it needed to be done in the last two years to keep orders manageable and because of high cost of manufacturing.

rental prices are going to be affected? YES. is this gonna sting for owners of Epic? SURE (how much it stings is up to you). does this have to happen? I think if RED is going to stick to their MANTRA then yes! yes! yes! because if RED is going to price themselves like the big boys (Sony, Canon, Arri) then they will die. RED will die. they will not be able to compete with such power. (financially or marketability). this is a world wide market and no one in asia is gonna shoot on an american camera when the asian one is priced the same. and most other places in the world are also like that. very few have heard of RED everyone knows Sony or Canon. RED has to win the war at home first and the only way to do that is to be affordable. Americans don't splash the cash, they go for what gets the job done at the cheapest price. if all things are equal even Americans choose the stronger brand (sony or canon).

now people who know about cameras and specs and techy speak will argue RED is much better then those other cameras and blah blah blah. I believe it and I know it too. but in a consumers head it's just blah blah blah. will the other camera also get the job done? YES! and there are more cameras that can get the job done coming out soon (canon's 1DC and a cinema camera from Canon that can shoot 4k raw).

so conclusion. IMHO Epic needs to get to $15-$20k and Dragon can not be something that costs over $40k before you can shoot something with it. Dragon Brain and a simple set up ready to shoot has to come in under $40k I think. I also agree with others that modules and Red Rockets need to come down in price also. these other cameras workflows are also beating RED in affordability. and like I said affordability was RED's MANTRA and it now has to get that back.
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RED has to cut down price drastically, take the deposit and reduce all the disposable cash now. Lock the people in.

If RED listens to all the guys here, then it will not reduce the price drastically. That will be counter productive for RED. Its business model depends on taking more people as customers. Bring on the bazooka to a fist fight.
 
John semikian said:
you're right and wrong i feel. sure bringing the price down on modules and red rockets would help everybody. but I think they are aiming to get more cameras in people's hands. and considering you can get all the work done that you need without a module or a red rocket (i've been working without them just fine, of course slower then others who have them) dropping those prices might not really have the big impact that getting more Epics out in the world would. also consider this. More Epics out in the world = more sales of modules and Red Rockets = cheaper prices on those add ons. they can't drop the module and rocket price cause the volume is too low. if everyone ordered one who owned an Epic that's still under x amount of orders. if X was a much higher number like double it is now, the Rocket and Module price would have to be lower.
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Indeed. We are speculating here. What drives decisions like this are business goals. RED has NOT given a clue about their business goal here. If the goal is to just get as many brains sold as possible, then, that's a whole different goal than the one I THINK is RED's goal - which is to compete effectively with new 4K cameras coming out.

I'm guessing (and hoping) RED's goal is the latter.

I think there'll be at time for flooding the market with cheap brain+minimag+lensmount+sidehandle packages. That's when the STILLS mode of the camera is fully ready, and the DSMC concept handles STILLS really well.

The focus right now has to be MOTION. Let's get that one knocked out of the park first - not just in terms of resolution, but the entire workflow through delivery and bridge the gap with ALEXA in terms of recording prores/dnxhd.
 
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