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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Seems like the idea of a trade-in program might be a natural solution of having always the "best" camera. Rather than purchasing the latest and greatest camera model every few years, Red would continually and constantly upgrade it at a fee. It would be a business model similar to that of a software update (e.g Adobe Photoshop which is updated every 1-2 years or Panavision where their cameras are constantly being updated via after every rental). This way you have the ability to opt in the system at full price, or pay a update fee for every upgrade. This way there's no constant fear of standing to lose everything when a competitor shows up with the latest and greatest system, because you know your base users will expect an update of some kind that would address the competition.
 
That's exactly what the Epic is. Dragon is the first "update".
 
Samir Patel said:
Prices will come down now and while Rob made a decision to buy back then, I have no sympathy for him. I have to look out for myself just as RED has to look out for themselves. And as much as anyone thinks it is in RED's best interest to artificially drop prices (by not dropping them where they are a game changer, as Rob would suggest, I do not believe that) So Rob, do us a favor and stop trying to speak for the multitudes of silent RED purchasers which are upset by potential price decreases. I have been a silent RED purchaser as well and I did by recently and I am not upset by this potential price decrease. And I will not be within the 30 day window to which I would get a accessories credit and I still want prices to go down. Because I did not foolishly make a bad "Investment". The last time I checked RED was a consumer products company and a private company at that. They have no responsibility to Public "investors". I don't consider my purchase an investment. I consider it a gateway to making my dream a reality. And you know what. If I was solely in the rental game and bought to rent out this camera I would not blame or ask RED "to be reasonable" in reducing prices. I am not on their board of directors. You should have done your own research on investing in tech. It is not their responsibility in protecting you. They have a responsibility to making sure the product performs under warranty. Sorry but I am just sick of 91 pages of garbage in which you sound like you are looking out for all of us. Remove me from your "others who are silent". I do not agree with your opinions. And I have owned multiple businesses myself and have developed multiple business plans myself. Just so you know.
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You don't seem to have an even basic understanding of the business we are in. Nobody made an "investment in tech". We are professionals and cameras are the tools we use, not the "investment" that we just sit on our ass and wait to get return on. Some here are solely in the rentals business and that's different.
 
I think that if RED does something in the ballpark of what I think they might, slashing the EPIC to around 17.5k and the scarlet to 7.5k, first, that would be good for sales and getting even more people into the ecosystem.
Secondly, the cameras would still hold their prices incredibly well compared to... Well... Anything.

Epic is now close to two years old...

Last fall, it was possible to get Sony F35 at around 12.5k

Wrap your head around that...

And it does seem logical to halve the price of the F65
Despite it being one of the best cams around, arguably, it hasn't really taken off. For whatever reason. Imho i think price of use is more of a factor than price of purchase, but never the less...

While people actually up untill recently have been able to charge 10k (more than 50%) on r1 bodies they bought back in 2008.

The red cams have held their value in incredible ways. It is not the price-drop that is the surprise, but how well they have held their price...

Just sayin'

G
 
Gunleik Groven said:
I think that if RED does something in the ballpark of what I think they might, slashing the EPIC to around 17.5k and the scarlet to 7.5k, first, that would be good for sales and getting even more people into the ecosystem.
Secondly, the cameras would still hold their prices incredibly well compared to... Well... Anything.

Epic is now close to two years old...

Last fall, it was possible to get Sony F35 at around 12.5k

Wrap your head around that...

And it does seem logical to halve the price of the F65
Despite it being one of the best cams around, arguably, it hasn't really taken off. For whatever reason. Imho i think price of use is more of a factor than price of purchase, but never the less...

While people actually up untill recently have been able to charge 10k (more than 50%) on r1 bodies they bought back in 2008.

The red cams have held their value in incredible ways. It is not the price-drop that is the surprise, but how well they have held their price...

Just sayin'

G
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This sounds about right :)
 
Bryce O said:
Totally agree with you here. People investing in Red should know what kind of company they are by now. I sure do, and this move makes complete sense. They've never been interested in playing by the industry "rules" and marking up prices just to create artificial exclusivity and fake-markets. Anyone who's been paying attention in the last few years surly has to see by now that the industry model everyone's been fallowing has been based upon a virtual monopoly. We're lucky that a company like Red even exists to keep kicking this stagnant industry in the ass. Keep it moving!!!
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Actually I did research them. Never before have they dropped the price fo their camera models in the store. R1 was traded back for full value. So loosing out big (if that will happen - I assuem it won't) on what, to us, is big money down will be a first for Red users/buyers, and out of character for their company. I think they would only have done that if the Sony camp had soem really cheap, very impressive offering. Looking at their announcement, they don't.

To those who say I do not speak for them, fine I never said I spoke for everyone, just a significant number of Epic owners, not all of whom are speaking up here. The chance that many Epic owners exist who are concerned by this yet saying nothing here is close to 100%. Its' not fun to speak up with a contrary view in a highly conformist, intolerant environment, which lets face it, this thread mostly is.

However, it's nonetheless reasonable to conclude that not many people would be happy about taking a rental revenue cut and a resale value cut just so that a stranger can get access to 5K rather than the already more than awesome 4K offered by Scarlet, to do a film that said current Epic owner likely will never even see, let alone participate in. That would represent essentially dysfunctional, abnormal psychology (empathy is only a good thing when it's within certain rational bounds) and that person would have trouble surviving in any business environment, let alone show business.

Red has EXCEEDED the normal following of some "industry rules" and traditions - those that relate to not leaving those who buy their gear suddenly holding the potato. Tiffen (Steadicam), Arri, even Sony, they all do it - Red did it better and more, until today - lets hope they keep it that way.

Not all industry traditions are bad, and not all "edgy indy film" practices are good. Me thinks reality is far more nuanced than that.
 
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I'm cool with the price drop, a huge one at that. Come on in guys, the water is warm. Not angry in the least, if anything, I'm considering buying a 2nd. Give people the opportunity to afford to shoot Epic, it will change lives.



Rob Ruffo said:
Actually I did research them. Never before have they dropped the price fo their camera models in the store. R1 was traded back for full value. So loosing out big (if that will happen - I assuem it won't) on what, to us, is big money down will be a first for Red users/buyers, and out of character for their company. I think they would only have done that if the Sony camp had soem really cheap, very impressive offering. Looking at their announcement, they don't.

To those who say I do not speak for them, fine I never said I spoke for everyone, just a significant number of Epic owners, not all of whom are speaking up here. The chance that many Epic owners exist who are concerned by this yet saying nothing here is close to 100%. Its' not fun to speak up with a contrary view in a highly conformist, intolerant environment, which lets face it, this thread mostly is.

However, it's nonetheless reasonable to conclude that not many people would be happy about taking a rental revenue cut and a resale value cut just so that a stranger can get access to 5K rather than the already more than awesome 4K offered by Scarlet, to do a film that said current Epic owner likely will never even see, let alone participate in. That would represent essentially dysfunctional, abnormal psychology (empathy is only a good thing when it's within certain rational bounds) and that person would have trouble surviving in any business environment, let alone show business.

Red has EXCEEDED the normal following of some "industry rules" and traditions - those that relate to not leaving those who buy their gear suddenly holding the potato. Tiffen (Steadicam), Arri, even Sony, they all do it - Red did it better and more, until today - lets hope they keep it that way.

Not all industry traditions are bad, and not all "edgy indy film" practices are good. Me thinks reality is far more nuanced than that.
Click to expand...
 
I personally think if Jim wants to drop the price of any of his products then he should learn his lesson from this FUD tread he started and just drop the price and not tell anyone.
He owns the company and doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

As he stated many months ago he wouldn't talk about future products until they were ready to be sold... Well Jim take your own mantra and do the same next time with your pricing.
Raise it.. Drop it.. Do what ever you like..

Just do it and let everyone else make there own opinions after the fact rather than before.
 
Too bad this thread will end in a couple of hours. I kinda liked it. Although I'm quite sure that this discussion will continue in Jim/Jarred's next post...
Hopefully with your happy-face on.
 
Will Keir said:
I'm cool with the price drop, a huge one at that. Come on in guys, the water is warm. Not angry in the least, if anything, I'm considering buying a 2nd. Give people the opportunity to afford to shoot Epic, it will change lives.
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Owning and Epic instead of Scarlet or R1 will not change your career at all, nor your life. Any gig that would really require that extra resolution/quality - or even care one way or the other - is the kind with more than enough money to pay for you to rent yourself one - along with a nice truck full of lights.

You can build an awesome reel with a Scarlet or R1 - some even say you can do that with a DSLR or an HVX but I feel that's pushing it.

Anyway, you don't need an Epic to change your life, that's for sure.
 
My guess is that those low Sony prices are leaked fakes, to fool Red. Don't fall for it.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Owning and Epic instead of Scarlet or R1 will not change your career at all, nor your life. Any gig that would really require that extra resolution/quality - or even care one way or the other - is the kind with more than enough money to pay for you to rent yourself one - along with a nice truck full of lights.

You can build an awesome reel with a Scarlet. You don't need an Epic to change your life.
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I have to say, that owning both, I usually wish I had 60 fps at 4k on almost every Scarlet shoot. That's as the cinematographer mind you.

Proxy files would be better even though.
 
Adam Eden said:
I personally think if Jim wants to drop the price of any of his products then he should learn his lesson from this FUD tread he started and just drop the price and not tell anyone.
He owns the company and doesn't need to explain himself to anyone.

As he stated many months ago he wouldn't talk about future products until they were ready to be sold... Well Jim take your own mantra and do the same next time with your pricing.
Raise it.. Drop it.. Do what ever you like..

Just do it and let everyone else make there own opinions after the fact rather than before.
Click to expand...

Yes but as customers we can do whatever we like too, and Red does listen to us.
 
Thomas Koch said:
I have to say, that owning both, I usually wish I had 60 fps at 4k on almost every Scarlet shoot. That's as the cinematographer mind you.

Proxy files would be better even though.
Click to expand...

Sure, those things are nice, but it is not reasonable to say that not having them in a camera you personally own is holding you back in your career progression. I guarantee that's not true.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Owning and Epic instead of Scarlet or R1 will not change your career at all, nor your life. Any gig that would really require that extra resolution/quality - or even care one way or the other - is the kind with more than enough money to pay for you to rent yourself one - along with a nice truck full of lights.

You can build an awesome reel with a Scarlet or R1 - some even say you can do that with a DSLR or an HVX but I feel that's pushing it.

Anyway, you don't need an Epic to change your life, that's for sure.
Click to expand...


Sorry Rob, but with the outmost respect I have for you, you need only to talk for yourself, when saying such thing...

EPIC, has changed my life drastically, more then I can say, yes, it is just a camera, absolutely agree with you here, but my agreement with you ends here, an Artist some times, does indeed gets inspiration by its tools, has happened to many, in many fields, even such a simple tool like a particular Brush to a Painter, which allowed him to Paint away like never before, that is what the EPIC has done to me, which the RED 1 did not, it truly was and still is a Life changing event, so please be respectful to others about their experience, even if it is about "JUST A CAMERA"... ;)


It is not only about the camera, is about all that is behind the camera as well that brings inspiration, an impossible journey made possible, and hence it also holds a certain amount of pride and inspiration to others, respect that.
 
... the artist chooses "the pencil and the canvas" for the work envisioned.
changing the tools, changes the character of the work.

Some artists compromise, if necessary. others do not.
That is a choice.

Choice creates trajectory.

Epic can change the life of certain people.

Shooting 96/120 has an esthetics of its on. Everything changes.

I don´t even know why i post this ... haha!
It is so obvious ...


cheers,
Detlev
 
If Red gives me a chance for a 10k upgrade path from Scarlet to Epic, Christmas will be extra sweet this year! I am writing Santa as we speak... (crossing my fingers...)
 
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