Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Tom Lowe]

Originally Posted by Jarred Land
I can tell you right now Scarlet, as it sits , cannot handle the Dragon.

But as it sits, neither can the Epic.

So does this mean that basically the camera's processor has to be redone? Is this an opportunity to crank up the horsepower?

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well, to some extent this is true but the first gen of digital cameras that replaced film, like audio before it, lack some of the quality that the previous analogue systems they replaced. When audio went digital, it was notably inferior in some respects to the system it replaced but due to lower costs it became the standard. It's not all down to picture quality.

Regarding the citigroup example - buying shares is a financially speculative enterprise with the clear understanding that shares may rise and fall - not a product. The analogy is not an apt one.

I am not saying Red shouldn't meet the needs of the marketplace but a sudden drastic devaluation of the cameras will make them worthless as a company if people cannot trust that their expensive investment in their equipment is a sound one. This is an opinion of course, but I will be much more wary in future of purchasing high priced Red products personally as a result of this.

Yes - at some point the only willing buyers left will be people with no understanding of business and accounting at all. Everyone else will just rent. Since people with no business sense tend to have poor negotiation skills, rentals will be dirt cheap.

At Red, I would want to wonder - how good a market are people with no understanding of business at all. How much money do they have?

Of course people living far from production centers and rental houses will still buy, but how good a market is that? How many working DPs, or people with any real money to spend, are there in remote places like that? How many would eb willing tp pay a real premium over soem cheapie albeit crappy alternative like a DSLR?

Again, if the reduction is reasonable - then awesome. I have no complaints, that is normal.

But at a business level - if you bought recently (like less than 6 months ago) at full price or pre-Jan "almost full" price your kit for lets say 40K and the same package goes down to 12K now - that's 28 K in rentals in 6 months. Very, very few people have made that much in that time. In that hypothetical situation (I know, we don't know what the cut is yet I am ONLY hypothesizing) I'm supposed to be happy losing tens of thousands because some stranger can now buy an Epic cheaper? I'm supposed to just keep my mouth shut? Or say Yippee!?

That would make me not just clueless at business but insane.

Again, big IFs. But people don't seem to understand how all this works very well. It's not about you being able to make your short film or not. You can make your short film now, by buying a Scarlet, a used MX, even renting. No one is stopping you.

But people bought Epics as part of their livelihoods.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Wow never seen one topic spring so many arguments across different view points. It's especially disappointing considering most of these started based on knee jerk reactions and assumptions about something we will get a solid answer on in two days.

Before anyone tears into an others life and personal philosophy how about we see what we are arguing about first.

We all have a right to our own opinions, and are free to make our own choices and decisions, but unfortunately life can suck real bad sometimes and those opinions could get you in trouble or your choices could barry you deep in a hole. But that is life we all go through it, it's about how you deal with the situation how you present yourself in a time of great trouble and need that shows what kind of person you truly are.

Stay passionate tactful and hopefully polite, Have a good one!

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Rob - with all due respect, there is a smugness in that statement that is unwarranted. There are some of us that have been engaged in business of various types for a very long time and simply don't agree with you. I might throw that same comment back at you but that would make me look smug. :smiley: (And, there is one JJ lurking around here that doesn't need to be "schooled" in business, I dare say!)

It appears you made a business decision that hasn't quite worked out according to your projections. It happens. We all make miscalculations. Hopefully, it isn't a catastrophic mistake that sinks your business; that would mean it was a foolish gamble. In the future, I suggest you never assume stable pricing in technology. If that means renting instead of buying for you, so be it. RED will be fine, they'll just sell that camera to the guy you rent from instead of to you. He'll take the risk that you don't want. If he is smart, he'll charge you a little more because he has to recoup his investment faster. Thankfully for you, competitive pressures will keep him from gouging you. All is good.

I wan't saying that to you - I was saying that to people who respond to business concerns about investment decisions by saying that "It's the story that matters" or "you should be selling your talent" or other completely unrelated statements to the mathematical decision to buy rather than rent.

This is my last post here - I have a day job (which is production - this is not a hobby for me) so flame away at me in my absence.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I dare say this is the most bizarre "business" discussion I have ever encountered. LOL Arguing against your suppliers for lowering their prices is just plain weird. I leave this discussion to be continued by those on that other planet. :willy_nillyersonally, I can't wait to see what the new Scarlet and Epic prices are, even if it does make my Scarlet "worthless."

 

[Arnold F.]

Absolutely, Positively. Speechless. This is really just unbelievable news. Thanks entire RED team. Kudos and congratulations for this incredible achievement and for a job well done. Just terrific. Life is best shot on RED, which is an incredible and amazing and speechless extension of not just your soul or even just mine, but for all the souls everywhere, even where they've never heard of RED or watch movies. Great work, Jim. Thanks everyone. I just want to say how amazing this is. This is just incredible. Speechless. Unbelievable. Thanks, RED TEAM! Extension of your soul. Ground-breaking, important World-Work, Jim!

 

[Martin Weiss]

Please do not turn this thread into a mud fight with personal attacks and questioning of integrity. That would only lead to a ban.

Thanks.

 

[Arnold F.]

An investment goes up in price. Buying a camera is more like a car, which is also frequently incorrectly called an investment.

You can certainly cancel your BT Scarlet order to buy an EPIC at the new price. But expect a significantly higher investment.

Jim

 

[Will Wernick]

I dare say this is the most bizarre "business" discussion I have ever encountered. LOL Arguing against your suppliers for lowering their prices is just plain weird. I leave this discussion to be continued by those on that other planet. :willy_nillyersonally, I can't wait to see what the new Scarlet and Epic prices are, even if it does make my Scarlet "worthless."

I agree. This is pretty funny. And even if they start giving the cameras away, they don't become worthless. Still an amazing tool at any price.

 

[Joshua Raven]

Sooo, somehow fewer people are going to buy Epics because they are cheaper? And the people who do buy them are hobbyists or fools? Yeah, I've got much better things to do than read this inanity. Gonna go slip a 256GB SSD into the side of a nuclear powered matchbox and go shoot some 5K at 96fps. I suggest everyone else who has been generously granted this ability by Jim, take a deep breath and go out and do the same.

 

[Eric Lange]

That TV is not sold on the same expectation of R.O.I.

I never said I was basing my entire business on a single camera. Our Epic is an investment among others, bought with money which was very hard to save in this economy in the hope of augmenting revenue from what we charge for our time. We could have not bought it, and rented, and still charged for our time, and still shot on an Epic the same way. No matter what we will charge the same amount for our time. As far as tax write-offs for depreciation, they do not work the same way in Canada and other countries as they do in the U.S.

Some of you guys - you really should take a business course, like NOW. Yes this business is also is art, but if you make investment vs. rental decisions only with your heart you will go bankrupt or remain a hobbiest forever with a day job.

Hi Rob…

Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?


[I have to admit I am very interested in other people’s business plans especially startups. Sometimes it can be a fatal mistake to believe a startup is just a smaller newer version of a larger company. Basically what one learns at Harvard business school tends to only kick in about four years in. I think the business and academia are just starting to ‘fess up and acknowledge the differences between start ups and larger existing corporations. Obviously this knowledge and recognition helps the likelihood of such a transition from start up to capable corporation.]

With interest,

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I agree. This is pretty funny. And even if they start giving the cameras away, they don't become worthless. Still an amazing tool at any price.

Yes an amazing tool. I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots. I don't regret choosing Epic for those shoots, not at all, but maybe in a few days I will regret having bought it rather than just renting. Maybe not. Maybe I will just a bot, but no big deal. It all depends on what Red chooses to do.

At an accounting level if that camera rents for zero and sells for zero then yes, it is worthless - in that there is no reason to spend money on it. Just go rent it for zero.

On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter. At that point you are making a number of customers regret trustingly giving you their money - which can't be too good.

A pro camera is not like a car, unless you use your car only a few days a week and have viable rental options nearby. A pro camera is not like a cell phone. A pro camera is not like a pastrami sandwich. A camera is not like anything else. Pro camera companies follow their own very different business models and buyers have specific expectations.

Really my last word.

 

[Mariano T.]

- never mind

 

[Peer Landa]

Some of you guys - you really should take a business course, like NOW.

I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots.

So maybe it's you, Rob, that "really should take a business course, like NOW." Perhaps then you'd have anticipated potential price drops in this ever evolving industry...?

-- peer

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

RED Team, hopefully we are finally done with the 'lowering your prices is bad for my business' complaint.
(I heard the same argument when DaVinci Resolve Lite came out and offered unlimited nodes etc., all for free. Folks who were against that and wanted BM to charge full price are not on my team and will never be, so their needs are not my needs.)

Maybe we can now get on a more constructive train and offer some input for you. My thoughts are simple -

1. Lowering price on the 'brain' is a silo'ed view and I hope you consider this an opportunity to lower the price on your REDCODE-based 'acquisition solution'
2. Consider what it takes to get an Alexa and BEYOND config (i.e. added Meizler module) and think in terms of lowering THAT price for ALL (existing and soon-to-be EPIC owners)
3. Consider offsetting the cost of some of your accessories with the profits off the brain - this will be unfair to those buying non-RED accessories, but fair to those investing in RED solutions. I belong to the latter, so this is favorable to me, may not be to many others.
4. Don't be reactive to a price slash from the competitors without taking a more strategic viewpoint. Remember they are reacting to you!

Thanks! And now, its time to disconnect from this discussion and hunker down for Sandy.

Nikhil K
Proud owner of EPIC-X "DAZZLE"

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter. At that point you are making a number of customers regret trustingly giving you their money - which can't be too good.

Interesting wording, like an idiot, that is how I'll feel aswell when I'm going to explain to the board of our company why I invested in these cameras on the premise that they were a rather safe investment, if it turns out that their value has deflated over night. The Scarlet does not matter if it's given away for free, but the Epic is a pretty darn expensive piece of equipment.

 

[paul schefz]

Hi Rob…

Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?

excellent question....i would love to know as well......

 

[Milan Spasic]

Rob doesnt want to go away, he thinks if he posts the same thing 100 times it will somehow influence a reduced price reduction. If I was RED, Id lower it even more... just to piss him and Milan off who seem to have taken it upon themselves to try and guilt trip RED for their own selfish agendas.

HA -- yes, I agree -- RED should go ahead and piss off Rob & Milan. And while at it, please piss them off royally ;^)

-- peer

The reason that nobody but few people bother to express their concerns here are idiotic personal insults like this. It's sad that this also includes moderators.

Selfish agendas? How about your selfish agenda? You made money on your Epics by buying them early and selling them early. You made your money and you will made more now.
I'm not in your kind of business, never will be. So speak for yourself and let others give their perspective. The incessant desire to put people down because they have an opposing point of view puzzles me. Sheesh.

 

[Elsie N]

Yes an amazing tool. I have ZERO complaints about the quality of my Epic. But I could have rented that same tool to do my shoots, and gotten exactly the same great shots. I don't regret choosing Epic for those shoots, not at all, but maybe in a few days I will regret having bought it rather than just renting. ...

At an accounting level if that camera rents for zero and sells for zero then yes, it is worthless - in that there is no reason to spend money on it. Just go rent it for zero.

On behalf on many of us here, please Red don't make me feel like an idiot for having become an Epic owner rather than just a renter.

ROB! I'VE GOT THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEM!!! Sell your camera and become a renter because as you say, rental prices will go down. So you see, if RED lowers the price of the Epic, you win as a renter and new customers win as renters because with the lower price they can rent their cameras out cheaper.

Why didn't I see this before.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Hi Rob…

Just out of interest what is the tipping point for the new price of Epic that essentially destroys your original business plan?

I.e. below what price point causes real trouble for you?


[I have to admit I am very interested in other people’s business plans especially startups. Sometimes it can be a fatal mistake to believe a startup is just a smaller newer version of a larger company. Basically what one learns at Harvard business school tends to only kick in about four years in. I think the business and academia are just starting to ‘fess up and acknowledge the differences between start ups and larger existing corporations. Obviously this knowledge and recognition helps the likelihood of such a transition from start up to capable corporation.]

With interest,

Cheers,

Eric

We plan to amortize over 1.5 years, selling at 40% retail at end of cycle. So 60% of +- 40K for the cam itself (with media and etc.)over 1.5 years - 20K a year - to break even. So far we have had our Epic since may and a working package since mid-June- 0.4 years and have indeed made less than 10K in rentals during that time (of the cam itself - Amber and I have other gear here, and of course sell our time - but we could do that without owning the Epic). Breaking even is actually losing money because there are insurance costs to be added to that, along with opportunity loss (traditionally this is counted as 15% a year) on the 40K which we could have invested in something else. You do hope for profit in these things. Not just arriving at zero. Otherwise you are working serving customers and answering questions, preparing outgoing kits, etc as well as maintaining and storing your gear for free. I already volunteer at various charities with all the time I can afford for that.

Already my business plan is not doing that well - but not tragic. Montreal has very much become an Alexa town, for whatever reason, and we have had to rent it even for our own shoots because producers demand it, however foolish they may be. Last year the MX did far better.