Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

[Mike Garrick]

Miko Kahu futurist....

"technology in 20 years time will be 1 billion times more powerfull"

I think we are in year 2 of this prediction.

Tech. advancement is speeding up not slowing down. The digital storm of exponential advancement still has along way yet to play out. 20th century business models are dying. As professionals we need to adapt to this ever evolving environment or go out of business. .....unfortunate but true. And no one, including the owners of RED have power to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[Jarred Land]

Rob is not alone at all..

Of course he isn't.. we have all gotten upset when we buy something and the next version comes out too soon to make us feel good.

The problem here is that Rob's objections are purely self-centered, which is understandable. He keeps saying that his wife's vacation gets interrupted and we are taking food off of his personal table... which as a selfish view ( i dont mean to use that term negatively ) is a valid argument, assuming what he is arguing is true.

On the inverse.. What we are doing is good for the bigger picture... as much as it is fun to argue otherwise. Having better tools for cheaper, is best for everyone. If Rob didn't own a camera, and was about to buy one, he would probably would be thrilled with this news.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

If that were going to happen, it would've happened when the RED ONE first came out.

Instead, what happened was everyone asked, "If RED can make a 4K RAW camera for $17,500, why does Sony charge so much for baked in 1080p?"

And the "8K" F65 came in at less than half, if I'm not mistaken, of what the F35 originally cost.

As someone pointed out earlier, the Alexa would've been at least twice as much money if it weren't for RED's price/performance ratio. And I'm quite sure you didn't feel the Epic wasn't worth it when you bought yours. Maybe know-nothing, YouTube trolling tweens may think so, but most rational adults know better.

If Dragon is the monster that RED claims it is, you'll see everyone else follow suit on lower pricing. If RED is making some of the best cameras on the planet, turning a healthy profit and simultaneously reducing costs to the consumer, that's not a race to the bottom. That's fulfilling the Dream, baby. It also makes RED's competitors look worse, not prestigious.

I find it interesting that you can't be talked down from being upset over a price you haven't even heard yet. You're already talking about canceling vacations for the family.

There's expressing legitimate concerns and then there's needless hand wringing. I think you've made your point. Now, try to relax.

If I were indeed upset at a price cut I have not seen, I would indeed by whining as Tom feels I am, because I would simply be complaining about what I cannot change. That price cut, I suspect, is not set in stone yet. I talk here in the hope that I can affect it toward being reasonable, not decimating toward the small shops who trustingly very recently invested in Epics, and for who that investment is truly major. I do so, knowing that Jim and Jarred are good people who do listen to their customers and supporters (I am both). If I didn't hold Jim and Jarred in that high regard, I would not bother because I would assume they don't care what I have to say and will do whatever regardless fo how it affects their users' ability to stay in business.

I have work to do, so my last word on this thread, but I felt passionate about this, especially since my pall in NYC borrowed some of the money from his Dad to buy his Epic, (with whom he already had a tenuous relationship) he's freaking out. I feel it's my fault. I think there are others like him out there. Jim and Jarred are not callous cold types (we have other camera corporations for that ). I'm sure they heard me now, speaking on behalf of more people than you might imagine. I'm sure they will take all of us under consideration.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

but of it goes down to 10 I'm sure that will be good for anybody, including the industry in general.

If anyone thinks the price reduction is going to make the Epic $10 I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Jim said they've figured out how to lower assembly costs not defied physics. The Meizler module is still $13,000 after all. You have to imagine the Epic brain costs considerably more to manufacture than a single module.

 

[paul schefz]

If it goes down to 20 for teh brain, fine, we'll live, but of it goes down to 10 I'm sure that will be good for anybody, including the industry in general.


So people who say everyone should have access to Epics are coming form a strange place. Why should they?

Democratization is one thing, but Marxism is another.

IF the price goes from 40K to 10K form one day to another, there is something seriously wrong with the price to begin with and this forum should be on fire because EVERYBODY here has overpaid like crazy.....but i would at least wait for that to happen before lighting the fuse....

what would be your argument AGAINST everybody OWNING an epic?
i really wonder what orson welles would have done with an iphone and iMovie app....and i would like a snapshot (or instagram) of his face if you told him that EVERYBODY has access to all this....

but there is a very well kept secret in the marxist world....there are stores that sell the same brushes and paint that picasso used....for a small investment you can....

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

If Rob didn't own a camera, and was about to buy one, he would probably would be thrilled with this news.

also this makes Scarlet owners happy because we have to save less money for Epic... (since scarlet prices go down like battle tested ones)

 

[paul schefz]

OK - I'll play along. I think he would depreciate (tax wise) the craft as rapidly as possible, use it as long as it served his needs, and never even worry about the price fluctuations in the interim. It isn't "worth" any less to him just because the price went down. It doesn't fly any slower, it's capacity didn't shrink, it's range is no different than what he knew he was buying. Oh yeah, and, unfortunately for him, his pilot isn't all of a sudden going to charge him 40% less. LOL And he "gets" that. The aircraft is never "worth" less until he goes to sell it. And, since it is a business tool, he has probably gotten full value out of it and just won't recapture as much, for tax purposes, when he sells it. On top of that, if his manufacturer values his business and gives him a good deal on a trade-in or helps him with his re-sale, all the better. But, of course, I can't speak for Jim. :smiley: Do you think he would rant and complain and be pissed off? :huh:

so right....

 

[Bob Gundu]

For the greater good!

 

[Emanuel A.]

Rob is not alone at all. There are many Red users I know that don't dare express their legitimate concerns here because of people like Tom Lowe, now a moderator, and some other users alike, who like to insult and ostracize people who give opinions that differ from "awesome!".

The other reason being is Jim's motto "we reserve to refuse service to anybody with bad attitude", the definition of which is pretty murky. Many livelihoods here depend on the tools we chose to use and in which we are deeply vested in.

OK, here's a second one. How many more? Is it possible to fulfill a full hand at least? Because you do a lot of noise. But in the end, I doubt you represent more than 5%... And I'm sorry to say it, but a company doesn't survive with 5% of the customers.

And about Tom, I've always expressed my opinions as same as others in these boards, even if diverging if necessary (it happens at times and he has always respected my voice.

 

[Emanuel A.]

(...) The problem here is that Rob's objections are purely self-centered (...) Having better tools for cheaper, is best for everyone. If Rob didn't own a camera, and was about to buy one, he would probably would be thrilled with this news.

With the due respect, that's my beef with his attitude in this thread. And he simply doesn't represent more than a minority who has always tried to put the RED flag on their side. When the RED early adopters who placed their own money in the front, came from dvxuser -- powered by filmmakers to filmmakers...

Like they represent any significant part of RED users what is absolutely untrue. And even not desirable for a manufacturer of cameras for many.
Not for a tiny minority like it could be coming from cinematography.com forums (where this project has been bashed down to the limits of decency) to here.

Always the same story: rentals vs moviemakers; money vs artists/shooters whatever you want to call to those who are tired to overpay the good life of third parties.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Of course he isn't.. we have all gotten upset when we buy something and the next version comes out too soon to make us feel good.

The problem here is that Rob's objections are purely self-centered, which is understandable. He keeps saying that his wife's vacation gets interrupted and we are taking food off of his table.

On the inverse.. What we are doing is good for the bigger picture... as much as it is fun to argue otherwise. Having better tools for cheaper, is best for everyone. If Rob didn't own a camera, and was about to buy one, he would probably would be thrilled with this news.

I wouldn't be thrilled. I have dear friends who own recent Epics, some on my direct recommendation.

The Scarlet is already dirt cheap, and is opening doors for thousands of young filmmakers. Would the Epic really open those doors any further? I WAS thrilled when the Scarlet was announced, and was thrilled to see even cheaper battle tested and used ones. "Great" I thought, "an opportunity for people to show what they can do." You've already given the world that. Maybe some filmmakers will break in only because you and Jim did what you did. But the Epic was another league, a luxury version, and those who bought it, the vast majority, did so as a business investment, not as a personal art or learning thing, and business has been hard for all of us these past four years of crappy economy (lots of work, not a lot of budget).

Yes, this does take food off the table (well, lets not be dramatic, I'm not about to starve, and I was making a facetious reference to other guy's wife, not mine - but it cuts my income, sure.)

I may be a nice guy, but to ask me to be happy about that, and the income lost by friends here and in the states, because other people can now buy their Epic cheaper is asking for something that is beyond human nature.

Anyway, no malice here. No disrespect (at all). On the contrary. The more I respect someone, the more I am willing to be honest with them.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

As a Scarlet customer I just want an affordable bus ticket.

And with all of the Epic talk, I'm not sure whether to feel really excited or worried about being the forgotten underclass. As Justin just said, the RED One customers were treated like royalty, so I'm inclined to lean towards really excited about what might be in this announcement.

I agree with this and Gavin's post before.

I see this as one of two things. I worry a bit that they feel the Scarlet really isn't able to handle Dragon. I also can understand the feeling of the Scarlet sort of being a dead end. I understand and sympathize with those Epic owners that paid the premium for the camera.

To Epic M owners, you paid a premium to get it when you did. You owned the market for a period of time. I see Epics get rented more than I can even get my Scarlet out there. But I get it. There is a reason it rents more.

To Epic X that were stage 2/3, you shouldn't really be worried or complaining. RED hooked you up and took care of you. I know it sucks that some of the people selling the used cameras are going to take hits now. Instead of selling for 30K even though many paid less you'll have to sell it for closer to what you paid.

To other Epic owners, I can see the reason your upset, but really, it's technology and it drops. If you couldn't afford it, and can't take the hit, or didn't plan on it...that sucks, but I mean it's technology and it gets used, and the price drops. I knew that when I bought my Scarlet. It's no different than buying a new car. It doesn't gain value when you drive it off the lot.

I like this because i feel like some on here try to take advantage of those looking to pick up used cameras/new non used accessories picked up in deals that sell them for a premium and abuse the system where RED helped you out. I get it you earned it and have the right to it, and jumped in early but you know what, this is how things go. This is how we keep moving forward. Atleast RED is really looking out for everyone here. I don't feel bad for anyone at the end of the day

To Scarlet owners, this is great for us for obvious reasons. I've found rentals to not be anything to depend on. But the world doesn't stop there. We have to make what we can afford work, and our cameras work.

Epic will open doors for many of us. I know it will for what I want to do if I can make it happen. I really hope with what Jim said about if we couldn't get one before, we could now.

I'm sure they'll be cheaper down the road as well, and i'll lose something on it, but hey I am paying to get what I want at that time.

To RED,

Thank you very much for this. I hope if I can't get it now, it atleast gets me closer. I don't want to ask to much, because what your doing is already amazing. But is it possible to offer some sort of Epic upgrade path for Scarlet owners? If not I get it. But this is where I agree with Gavin's previous post, I understand things change, but I bought the camera on the basis I wouldn't have to buy another, and that I could upgrade the sensor. Here we are nearly a year later, and it may or may not be possible. The camera I personally want is the Epic. If there is some way to offer this path I'd greatly appreciate it. I'd like to know that I have a way to move forward and still keep upgrading. Only RED offers things like this which is why you guys are great.

You've earned my trust. Thank you Jim and Jarred. I trust you'll give us some option and take care of us. I know i'm negative and sometimes have a bad attitude on here. At the end of the day I need to be more positive. But only you, would do this for your customers. The least we can do is trust you and keep supporting you.

 

[mikeburton]

Looking forward to the announcement. No speculation here. No expectations. It's just good for the filmmaking community whatever it is.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

With the due respect, that's my beef with his attitude in this thread. And he simply doesn't represent more than a minority who has always tried to put the RED flag on their side. When the RED early adopters who placed their own money in the front, came from dvxuser.

Like they represent any significant part of RED users what is absolutely untrue. And even not desirable for a manufacturer of cameras for many.
Not for a tiny minority like it could be coming from cinematography.com forums (where this project has been bashed down to the limits of decency) to here.

The people at cinematography.com represent the absolute top end of this business (not everyone, but many posters there). Many shoot with the Epic, and own it. David Mullen is a member there. Maybe dismissing them is not entirely wise. They are opinion makers of the highest order (again, some, not all).

However, they should not react (I am not doing that, I am saying IF the cut is too drastic - I am not assuming anything) to something as though it were set in stone in terms of its size.

 

[Elsie N]

I really think you have to be big... like Sony maybe, to influence the new price.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

And about the Global Express.. like most things.. it lost most of it's value as soon as it left the hanger.

"Most of it's (sic) value" is incorrect. The Global Express still commands a very high resale value, it is a quality product. But then, so is a Rolex. And so is my Epic.

The 'new' prices are something we are all waiting for, you are market-making this event, caution advised.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i still dont understand the epic gets too cheap argument.
if you want to differ from the 1x128 GB card owners, buy the assecoiries needed.

i bet an epic with meizler, bomb, 6x256 GB cards, brigdeplate, 8 vmount batteries, quad harger, handeld rig, oconnor, ff4,lmb5,mb20,
schulzlegs, c-motion, lenses, a couple apple boxes, a magliner and a truck will still be more expensive than a epic with lcd and 2 redvolts.
and this assecoiry stuff is so expensive that it actuall makes no different which camera is mounted.
everytging stays the same except the body. rest will earn for the next 20 years. so be glad that you can now buy a back up body and add that for free for example.
my 2 cents.

 

[paul schefz]

I wouldn't be thrilled. I have dear friends who own recent Epics, some on my direct recommendation.

The Scarlet is already dirt cheap, and is opening doors for thousands of young filmmakers. Would the Epic really open those doors any further? I WAS thrilled when the Scarlet was announced, and was thrilled to see even cheaper battle tested and used ones. "Great" I thought, "an opportunity for people to show what they can do." You've already given the world that. Maybe some filmmakers will break in only because you and Jim did what you did. But the Epic was another league, a luxury version, and those who bought it, the vast majority, did so as a business investment, not as a personal art or learning thing, and business has been hard for all of us these past four years of crappy economy (lots of work, not a lot of budget).

Yes, this does take food off the table (well, lets not be dramatic, I'm not about to starve, and I was making a facetious reference to other guy's wife, not mine - but it cuts my income, sure.)

I may be a nice guy, but to ask me to be happy about that, and the income lost by friends here and in the states, because other people can now buy their Epic cheaper is asking for something that is beyond human nature.

Anyway, no malice here. No disrespect (at all).

i really do not mean any disrespect in any way either...but i just don' t understand what you are saying?
reading this one might think you bought a 250k printing machine and epson just came out with a desktop printer....

you bought a 35k brain (all the other stuff can be used with all other cameras).....would you sell it today for 18k? 15k? you keep taking about a 10k epic next week....
still...if you sold it today...how much money has it made you since you had it? if you sold it today for 15k....add in what it made you....what you wrote off in taxes....how big is that loss? 5k, 10k? 2K? i mean you did use it, right?

you sound like you lost your house and for what? so other people can get cheaper cameras? marxism!

i probably would have waited to tell your friend about a price change until it ACTUALLY HAPPENED....and still did... he want a camera to use or stock or real estate?

it's a camera.....people go out buy their dream car and crash it into a tree and loose a lot more money that way....just use the camera for the next 5 years and be happy....i don't think cell phones will be at epic level by then...but i would not put money on that either....

 

[Emanuel A.]

The people at cinematography.com represent the absolute top end of this business (not everyone, but many posters there). Many shoot with the Epic, and own it. David Mullen is a member there. Maybe dismissing them is not entirely wise. They are opinion makers of the highest order (again, some, not all).

However, they should not react (I am not doing that, I am saying IF the cut is too drastic - I am not assuming anything) to something as though it were set in stone in terms of its size.

For your information, David Mullen was one of the few if not the only one who publicly defended my honour in such boards. So, please don't hide the dirty game of the usual suspects with REAL moviemakers and decent people. For some reason, he is a reference for all of us. And we don't see him to feed personal agendas.

The point is that I've dedicated all my life to movies. Did you already sleep in a car because of them? I did. And all my partners, I guess, too. How many on cinematography.com forums can say the same? Unless to attack who they simply don't know... even insinuating lack of background. What it is untrue. Only for the record, I attended one of the most elitist filmschools of old Europe where I could finish two graduations in filmmaking (yes, on celluloid-based), nevertheless, I was attacked there as an indigent, along Jim, even Jarred in his own first post ever IIRC. I don't remember to have seen your name there. But speaking of another name already mentioned tonight here, Tom Lowe was the only name seen in this thread, beyond mine (and of course, Jim/Jarred), to fight for RED acceptance there.

 

[George A.]

Anyway, no malice here. No disrespect (at all).

Hi Rob,

None taken by anyone, I'm sure. My reply didn't aim specifically at you, either.
In fact, I understand your worries. They are the same worries I have when I buy a Mac Pro. Or an editing software. Or a camera. Their value goes down the minute they arrive at my door.

But - this is life.

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Think what you can do with a great camera, or with an affordable editing software. If these are simply tools for higher goals, then you'll be happy. If, on the other hand, you're just trying to make a profit out of them, you're in trouble from the start. That's the nature of this game. It's a risk - in fact, it's a reality - you have to accept, anticipate, and live with it. Did you truly expect the EPIC to hold onto its value for two years? If yes - and I say this respectfully - you were not realistic when you made the decision to buy it.

At the end of the day, better products for lower prices is what makes our life better. Generally speaking. This is why I personally welcome the price reduction.
George

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