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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Everything changes... IMPORTANT post.

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Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
I own an EPIC-X. I'm thrilled by this move by RED. The ubiquitousness of the camera will mean ENHANCED and simple workflows, TONS of usage, and a broad base for the RED world of products. This is what I've bought into, and I want to see RED thrive, not just survive.

Onward RED. I think this is a smart move. Do I feel bits of regret? Well... yeah... a bit... but to hell with that. Keep doing what you are doing. Before you came along, my options as a Filmmaker were zero to none. (I shot my first feature on 35mm, and God, the money sink THAT was!)
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I agree and I guess it is more the problem of who is/was the EPIC buyer/shooter behind the camera than the tool's price ;-) Don't kill the messenger :D
 
Emanuel A. said:
I agree and I guess it is more the problem of who was/is the EPIC buyer/shooter behind the camera than the tool's price ;-) Don't kill the messenger :D
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That same shooter could just rent for the day. Again, owning gear does not define you as a DP - it just helps your bottom line, or kills it unless you live in a market with no rental houses See it that way. It will really help you move forward as an artist. What you own does not make you a better or a worse DP - because you can rent any camera you want - it's just a $$ issue, ONLY.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
So you're happy that your income will be going down? "Sorry honey, no vacation this year, but some kid in Ohio I never met can shoot his short on Epic instead of Scarlet, and Reduser has more members than ever!" Please send me a picture of your wife's reaction.

Yes, businesses transition. But businesses also eat themselves at some point. This process can be slowed or accelerated depending on the actions of those involved.
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This has a name: self-protectionism. Everything RED said the company is not, from day one.
 
Yeah Peter, I fully understand your view just like I understand Rob's. I think that competition is healthy even though it feels like it would hurt. If a client strictly wants more equipment for their bucks (which I probably would too), they should research and see where they can go. There is no guarantee that some rich camera owner won't come along and buy a bunch of goodies and rent them for a ridiculously low price (cause he/she doesn't need the money to survive). Rental is a tricky game.

Hopefully that client will develop the right rapport with you. When you look at banks, sometimes we don't always go for the best interest rate. We like their service, their hours of operation, the experience we get from their web banking or telephone banking or the products they offer (which would be the equipment part above). Sometimes clients like and respect the person or company rather then simply the best rate. That's the overall picture that I hope my clients get from me. The differentiation isn't just equipment but the customer service, the communication, and the referrals.
 
Wil Wong said:
Yeah Peter, I fully understand your view just like I understand Rob's. I think that competition is healthy even though it feels like it would hurt. If a client strictly wants more equipment for their bucks (which I probably would too), they should research and see where they can go. There is no guarantee that some rich camera owner won't come along and buy a bunch of goodies and rent them for a ridiculously low price (cause he/she doesn't need the money to survive). Rental is a tricky game.

Hopefully that client will develop the right rapport with you. When you look at banks, sometimes we don't always go for the best interest rate. We like their service, their hours of operation, the experience we get from their web banking or telephone banking or the products they offer (which would be the equipment part above). Sometimes clients like and respect the person or company rather then simply the best rate. That's the overall picture that I hope my clients get from me. The differentiation isn't just equipment but the customer service, the communication, and the referrals.
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Well that I agree with.
 
Yeah I agree Wil. Also keep in mind we don't know what Red is slashing the prices to yet. If it's just a few thousand bucks it may not be a big deal at all. If it will be $20k for epic brain then we may have a serious discussion on our hands ;-)

Gotta wait a couple more days to find out
 
Also I should state that I think Scarlet's potential price slash is far more problematic for those people who are espousing these views because Epic going from 35k to 30k may not mean much. But scarlet going from 9.7k or whatever to 7k or 6k may be have far bigger and reaching repercussions. Because as many people have already suggested previously, cheap scarlets are already bleeding epic sales/rentals because many people view the Scarlet as having the same image quality as the Epic, just less options. So an even cheaper Scarlet can potentially do even more damage to epic owners/renters.

Now I haven't seen it confirmed that Scarlet is being slashed too but pretty sure someone in this thread said that Jim's message was referring to Epic AND scarlet and possibly R1 MX as well
 
Peter Dmitriyev said:
(...) Also keep in mind we don't know what Red is slashing the prices to yet. If it's just a few thousand bucks it may not be a big deal at all. If it will be $20k for epic brain then we may have a serious discussion on our hands ;-)
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Some old customers can even be more harmful to the company than any new price introduction of every competitors altogether. Some of these old customers look like the ex-wife jealous on the pretty and younger one to come and take place.
 
Bob Gundu said:
Lets not forget that there is Dragon waiting around the corner. This will probably have a premium price while the Epic/Scarlet cameras hit the front lines.
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It most likely will.. the $6k price is not going to be the normal price... that $6k was a thank you to our customers for coming along for the ride... and Dragon with the new ASIC is getting more expensive to make, not cheaper.

Everyone needs to remember this isn't a fire sale.. we don't have a ton of Epics sitting on the shelves and we are trying to get rid of them... quite the opposite. This is simply a reduction on the cost of goods.. for both us... and in turn... you. We are only lowering prices on the stuff that has gotten cheaper to make.
 
Rob, if a rental house (or someone that bought a Epic as an investment) that purely rents out a camera doesn't get their money back within a short period of time, then the business plan must have a mistake somewhere. Marketing... Promotions... Return customer appreciation incentives... something isn't right (unless they bought the epic last month and with the price drop now, feel kind of hurt by the move).

Return on Investment wise, Granted that the time between the RED ONE and any other 4k camera took a few years before a competitor came close. Back then I'm sure the market were skeptical of using Red cause the rest of the workflow...editing 4k on a computer in 2008 must have been very expensive (and slower then now).

Now that we are at the point where the competition are all about to flood the market with 4k, that time of buying an Epic for rentals looks closer to a required 1 year on ROI. Why? It won't be Red's discount that makes it tough, it'll be the rest of the cameras from Sony, Canon, and maybe Panasonic if they ever figure out how to even play the game. Return on Investment is gonna be a lot tougher because of them then Red. Alexa is gonna step up to the plate too. Having more Red cameras in the market simply means that folks may want to rent a second camera to have more coverage. Rent accessories like cards, batteries and other needs that they don't own (from other Red owners). I still believe it will help rental houses as it would the DP and indie-filmmakers alike.
 
Some of the comments here boggle my mind. Do folks get upset at Apple if they lower the price of a MacBook Pro or introduce a new, more capable model at the same price as the old one? It's a tool. Some tools are better leased or rented because it is financially unfeasible to own them. Others it is better buying and owning because the numbers work in that direction. Almost every business has a different set of circumstances so their decision is an individual one and should take as many variables into consideration as possible. No one should assume that a supplier of capital equipment will never change their offering or their pricing. To think so is naive. There is also a lot of hand wringing as if the day after the announcement of a new price for Epic , the entire market will react all at once and everything will change in an instant. Take a deep breath and work with the circumstance that arrive. Of all companies from which you might assume stasis, RED is a poor choice.
 
Ok makes sense. Not sure if you can answer this, the 6K to upgrade your epic to dragon price... is that valid with new Epic sales after Nov 1st?

Jarred Land said:
It most likely will.. the $6k price is not going to be the normal price... that $6k was a thank you to our customers for coming along for the ride... and Dragon with the new ASIC is getting more expensive to make, not cheaper.

Everyone needs to remember this isn't a fire sale.. we don't have a ton of Epics sitting on the shelves and we are trying to get rid of them... quite the opposite. This is simply a reduction on the cost of goods.. for both us... and in turn... you. We are only lowering prices on the stuff that has gotten cheaper to make.
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This is ridiculous. I wish more companies were as transparent as RED has been. They could have simply said nothing and pocketed all the extra money without passing off the savings to future customers. Based on this news I would expect RED would reduce costs on accessories when the time comes where those costs to produce those accessories is reduced. Can you say that about any other company? Really?
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Some of the comments here boggle my mind. Do folks get upset at Apple if they lower the price of a MacBook Pro or introduce a new, more capable model at the same price as the old one? It's a tool. Some tools are better leased or rented because it is financially unfeasible to own them. Others it is better buying and owning because the numbers work in that direction. Almost every business has a different set of circumstances so their decision is an individual one and should take as many variables into consideration as possible. No one should assume that a supplier of capital equipment will never change their offering or their pricing. To think so is naive. There is also a lot of hand wringing as if the day after the announcement of a new price for Epic , the entire market will react all at once and everything will change in an instant. Take a deep breath and work with the circumstance that arrive. Of all companies from which you might assume stasis, RED is a poor choice.
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I bet it is easier to understand to those who like you have economics background. I guess there are not many intraday traders among them or they would praise to not have to deal with price movements just along the same day :P
 
I'd suggest to give the name of Shane Hurlbut (and Philip Bloom BTW) to the local inquisition. Or why not to report their full names to Senator McCarthy's list? ;-)
 
Does anyone even care what this price change does to the resale value of my RED ONE?

Oh well...It still puts out some awesome images and my clients love the results I get with it! ;)
 
I'm with you

I'm with you

Jarred Land said:
Its actually a race to the top.. unfortunately the ones that don't get that are in for a rocky ride. Cameras are getting better for cheaper. There is no getting around that. Look around. A current $500 entry level DSLR shoots better images than a $10,000 DSLR from just 2 years ago. Take a look over at DXOmark .. From a pure technical image quality rating there are $2000 cameras stomping $60,000 digital backs. Its just going to happen. We know China is trying to copy what we are doing.. along with a ton of other companies. And they will release something for cheap and they wont give a shit about the customer.. and the net effect stays the same.
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Jarred I'm with you on this one. I've been coming and reading posts here for a loooong time. this is my first post but it's just to say I know some people are pissed off and all that, but obviously they're missing the point. some people can't see past (I spent $x more then it is now) BS. point is when a company admittedly announces that they have found cheaper ways to make a certain product (which is good business) and then for ethical and competitive reasons decide to drop the price of that product it's only good for the consumer, yes even the one who bought one at a higher price, because now he can add another one to his arsenal for a cheaper price, not to mention repairs and parts for the one they already own should also be cheaper. Just about nothing electronic you buy today will be worth the same amount in the future and sometimes that happens in 6 months time. Rob if this bothers you don't ever buy an apple product. btw Apple seems to be doing just fine financially even though they keep releasing new stuff and dropping the value of old stuff. probably because there stuff still kicks ass.

with that said JARRED i got a question. let's say you drop the Epic X price, then 4 months later you release the Dragon. Will the Epic X (or something similar like an upgraded Scarlett to Epic standards) still be available in the market for that new dropped price late 2013? or are you gonna do away with selling Epic Xs when Dragon is unleashed? I ask because I'm planning on adding an Epic X to my arsenal around my birthday, summer of next year.

P.S. you guys do kick ass and people who may feel like they paid $X more then they should've aren't really gonna go anywhere else cause I believe you guys are gonna keep kicking ass. besides those types are usually impossible to please.
 
Reading some of the comments must make JJ wonder if it was even worth the effort reducing prices. No more Mr. Nice guy. Get ready to pay 10k for the Dragon upgrade! Time to poach some Sony executives and let them run RED!
 
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