super 35mm and vistavision anamorphic

[Peter Osinski]

What is the typical size of the image circle for anamorphic lenses in both super35mm and vistavision formats? More specifically, what would be the ideal sensor size in mm to work with most lenses?

 

[Nick Gardner]

Not sure I follow the Vistavision question. Vistavision was a spherical widescreen format, not an anamorphic one. They were two different solutions to the same end.

Nick

 

[Peter Osinski]

I guess what I am saying is vistavision is a 3:2 aspect ratio format I think. Are there anamorphic lenses made to cover 36x24mm?

Same question for super35mm. From what I have been able to find:

1. s35mm format was made for spherical lenses at 24.9x18.66
2. cinemascope was typically shot anamorphically on standard 35mm at 21.95 x 18.66.


My question is: will the anamorphic lenses made to cover format 2 also cover format 1? For example, if I was modifying the region of interest on a sensor and wanted to use something like the hawk anamorphics or another set of anamorphic cine lenses would they cover format 1?

 

[Björn Benckert]

For "5k ana" the epic shoots 3296 pixels in width that is if i'm not mistaken using about 17,9mm out of the 27,7mm 5k sensor giving a 1:2,41 image when you are using the full hight.

Check the images of the bottom of our hawk page http://wordpress.syndicate.se/test-of-our-new-hawk-anamorphic-lenses/

thier shot with the 5k Ana and even the wide 35mm got good coverage for that part of the sensor. Anamorphics where made only to project the acadamy part of the neg, i.e super35 minus soundtrack. So only the longer lenses has FF coverage..

Here are some FF captures with the same lenses as above, as you can see the wide ones get quite quite unsharp at the edges and the 35 is vingeting black on the sides...
even so I love the 32:9 format

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C001_0616LI.35mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C009_0616J9.50mm 5k Ana v2.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C010_0616VB.75mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C014_06162C.100mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C018_0616SC.135mm 5k.jpg

Edit: now I saw your vista vision question. I guess vista vision with 2x anamorphics would give an image of 3:1 in aspect ration if there are any anamorphics that would cover that big of a neg. But still it would be a bit wider than most people would like. I guess.

Full 65mm anamorphic would not be to shabby, is there such lenses? I want that epic 625 now

 

[Phil Holland]

Traditionally speaking if we are considering S35 2x anamorphic lenses you'd want approximately a 4:3 aspect ratio sensor of approximately S35 frame size. However, that's not the whole story as people can shoot 2x on 1.78:1 and Red 1.9:1s sensor with their crop factors and different shooting modes taken into account. There are also 1.25x, 1.33x, 1.42x, 1.5x, 1.75x, 1.77x, and 1.9x anamorphic designs that produce a different feel/look and were typically designed with other sensor sizes in mind.

Remember there are anamorphic lenses that were designed for 8mm and 16mm use as well. So a smaller sensor camera may be ideal for those particular lenses.

Rare and stranger, there are bizarre anamorphic lenses out there too. There is a 3x for instance, which is very squeezed and very hard to find. There are also a bunch of "one off" lenses that were created for specific jobs here and there if you can find them.

I own and use an Iscorama 50mm f/2.8 1.5x Anamorphic that was indeed designed to be used on bulk loaded FF35 still cameras and Vistavision format (8 perf).

On top of all this information you can use anamorphic attachments on various lenses to produce similar results by adapting them to fit the lens, but this solution is typically much more difficult to use in a production setting and sometimes not optically very good.

 

[Björn Benckert]

you'd want approximately a 4:3 aspect ratio sensor of approximately S35 frame size. However, t.

I would say Academy 35 since most wide anamorphic lenses do not cover S35. At least not the ones from the celluloid ages...they where all made to only expose a 4/3 frame next to the sound track.

 

[Phil Holland]

Good point. Although I think the 35mm Panavision C Series covers full ap. I know the older wide Lomo's don't though.

 

[Peter Osinski]

For "5k ana" the epic shoots 3296 pixels in width that is if i'm not mistaken using about 17,9mm out of the 27,7mm 5k sensor giving a 1:2,41 image when you are using the full hight.

Check the images of the bottom of our hawk page http://wordpress.syndicate.se/test-of-our-new-hawk-anamorphic-lenses/

thier shot with the 5k Ana and even the wide 35mm got good coverage for that part of the sensor. Anamorphics where made only to project the acadamy part of the neg, i.e super35 minus soundtrack. So only the longer lenses has FF coverage..

Here are some FF captures with the same lenses as above, as you can see the wide ones get quite quite unsharp at the edges and the 35 is vingeting black on the sides...
even so I love the 32:9 format

http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C001_0616LI.35mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C009_0616J9.50mm 5k Ana v2.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C010_0616VB.75mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C014_06162C.100mm 5k.jpg
http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/hawk/A004_C018_0616SC.135mm 5k.jpg

Edit: now I saw your vista vision question. I guess vista vision with 2x anamorphics would give an image of 3:1 in aspect ration if there are any anamorphics that would cover that big of a neg. But still it would be a bit wider than most people would like. I guess.

Full 65mm anamorphic would not be to shabby, is there such lenses? I want that epic 625 now

How do you typically support those lenses? Will the PL mount handle them on its own or does it require a special bracket?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

The Technirama format used 8-perf 35mm horizontal (VistaVision) cameras with 1.5X anamorphic lenses. But those lenses were made in the 1950's for non-reflex cameras.

Technirama movies include "Spartacus" and "El Cid".

 

[Peter Osinski]

so the consensus then is 22mm x19 academy format for shooting anamorphic will be a good target?

 

[Daniel S Williams]

so the consensus then is 22mm x19 academy format for shooting anamorphic will be a good target?

Yes, approximately 22x19 was the academy aperture size with the magnetic sound strip included. The 2x anamorphics were designed with this ratio in mind, not full aperture s35

 

[Daniel S Williams]

Edit: now I saw your vista vision question. I guess vista vision with 2x anamorphics would give an image of 3:1 in aspect ration if there are any anamorphics that would cover that big of a neg. But still it would be a bit wider than most people would like. I guess.

It would be interesting to shoot some vistavision 1.5:1 tests with a longer lens anamorphic, one with more magnification and what I assume is a larger image circle. Even so, you'd still probably be restricted to a fairly normal or even medium telephoto field of view. But legitimate Ana 3:1 on vistavision would look quite awesome!

 

[Phil Holland]

It would be interesting to shoot some vistavision 1.5:1 tests with a longer lens anamorphic, one with more magnification and what I assume is a larger image circle. Even so, you'd still probably be restricted to a fairly normal or even medium telephoto field of view. But legitimate Ana 3:1 on vistavision would look quite awesome!

You would have loved hanging out with me in the early through mid 2000s when I was going through my experimental anamorphic stage. It was before the DSLR video thing happened and I was extremely interested in shooting anamorphic on the FF35 format for some reason.

Here's a 3:1 aspect ratio image captured on a full frame DSLR (1Ds Mark III in this case) with a 100mm f/2 2X anamorphic lens:

And another couple from that lens:

I now more commonly shoot with my Iscorama 50mm f/2.8 1.5x anamorphic due to it's more compact size and ease of use. Here's a few from that also on a full frame DSLR:

 

[J. P. Morgan]

those stills are incredible!