Is it possible to record audio straight into camera yet?

[Ryan Lalonde]

Can't seem to find this info.

I have an A-Box and I am wondering if I can plug a shotgun mic + lav and get something half decent out of it. I don't expect it to be amazing but I sometimes I like to throw a shotgun mic on the camera to record at least something if we are shooting establishers etc.

Everything else is separate system audio for us!

(Would test myself but I'm out of town for the rest of the month with out my A-Box) I tried this last year when the first X's were shipping and we had a lot of issues. Hopefully it has improved since then.


Thanks,
Ryan

 

[Brandon J.F.]

Yes, I have done it many times.

 

[jimhare]

Me too. I use it for production jobs if it's low budget. No complaints! You have to troubleshoot quite a bit and leave nothing to chance, but if you get your settings right it sounds perfect.

 

[Christopher Mills]

possible.. but

possible.. but

You can do this, but it is not bulletproof.
The A-box works, and works well, but the camera is unpredictable.
You would be VERY wise to record double system for all dialog or critical interview work.
I have done sound for several RED projects both R1 and EPIC, and even with the same camera same firmware we get different quality results on different days when running only onboard adio.

 

[Mike P.]

Chris/jim, can you elaborate on your unpredictable results? Does it just flat-out not work randomly sometimes, or are you talking about sometimes having hisses/whines based on the mics/lenses you use that day?

Also, do you know if the PRO I/O has the same inconsistencies?

 

[jimhare]

Hi Mike,

For me it's the spinning whir that creeps in when you don't have the settings right. Sometimes hear it in the phones on set, but often can't hear it there but creeps in when playing back in the studio. I haven't nailed it down but there appears to be a difference when using a wireless lapel to using a cabled boom. Don't think I've EVER heard it using the Rode NT2, on battery or phantom. Only heard it on the Sennheiser lapels. The sound is definitely not being created by them, I used to use them on the R1 all the time, but maybe something in the cable or other factors.

Anyway, agree that dual system for critical projects the only way to go, at least for the moment. There seems to be enough "noise" here on RU that I imagine we'll have great results very soon. The R1 when through growing pains with audio, but when they got it right it was absolutely bulletproof.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Anyway, agree that dual system for critical projects the only way to go, at least for the moment. There seems to be enough "noise" here on RU that I imagine we'll have great results very soon. The R1 when through growing pains with audio, but when they got it right it was absolutely bulletproof.

That is not my experience. I still say it makes more sense to only have a scratch track on digital cameras.

One interesting point: if the input signal is loud enough (without clipping), any residual noise in the system is going to be low enough that you might not notice. This is a good reason why a true line-level audio signal is preferable going into a camera. A mike-level signal is fairly low level, which makes any noise that much more audible. Balanced connections also keep the potential noise levels low.

Good microphone preamplifiers are not cheap. There are very high-end pro mixing consoles that use mike preamps that are over $1000 each, per channel; high-end recorders are probably a lot lower, but still hundreds of dollars each. I tend to doubt that there's any camera in the world that uses mike preamps that are more than a few dollars each -- and I include Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon, and Red in that category. The audio sections are not designed with top quality in mind; they essentially work in terms of "sound is there," but not much more than that.

 

[George Hupka]

When I get home from London my Pro I/O should be arriving too.... and audio is one of the first things I'll be checking out.

I've had bad luck with Epic audio so far, although much of that is second-hand information from others who have been renting my camera package. On one show the scratch track was so bad (clicks, pops, "beating" sounds, etc.) they ended up syncing from the sound recorder for dailies just so the producer and director would stop panicking that the "real" sound was that bad.

All I've been able to determine is that the Sennheiser G2 and G3 reeivers seem to be the worst offenders - They use the output cable as the receiver's 2nd (diversity) antenna so I am suspicious that this is part of the problem... Yet I've never had problems with any other camera or mixer (and the G2's have been really popular for scratch track to camera, as they are affordable and generally pretty reliable).

Biggest problem is that troubleshooting is so difficult, as you don't know that what you're hearing in the monitor is what is being recorded. I've tested and got noise on the monitor with a clean recording, and vice versa, and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. In testing I've had much fewer problems with Lectrosonics systems, but no configuration seems to be immune from random audio problems so far. (Even hardwire line level from a mixer)

Despite all the bad press Red One audio got, once the proper cables were available I had very few problems when feeding line level audio into the Red One... Hoping Pro I/O can at least get me back to that with Epic.

 

[Christopher Mills]

Red one audio v Epic

Red one audio v Epic

George,
I found that the scratch tracks sent to R! (sometimes by G2, sometimes by lectrosonics UHF hop, and sometimes by proper cabels) were a LOT more free of stray noise than the Epic.
The A box is pretty much essential, but it does not prevent the Epic from having extraneous noise added to your guide track.

so... having used both cameras.. I stand by telling the OP to use a standalone recorder for all audio they may need to deliver or broadcast.

though, if I was on a desert island and had to pick a Red camera to which the audio would be single system.. it would be the R1 (and yeah, I have used both R1 and Epics myself for projects in the last year)

 

[Mike P.]

George,
I found that the scratch tracks sent to R! (sometimes by G2, sometimes by lectrosonics UHF hop, and sometimes by proper cabels) were a LOT more free of stray noise than the Epic.
The A box is pretty much essential, but it does not prevent the Epic from having extraneous noise added to your guide track.

so... having used both cameras.. I stand by telling the OP to use a standalone recorder for all audio they may need to deliver or broadcast.

though, if I was on a desert island and had to pick a Red camera to which the audio would be single system.. it would be the R1 (and yeah, I have used both R1 and Epics myself for projects in the last year)

Have you used the Pro I/O? Is that cleaner?

Maybe George Hupka can chime in when he gets home.

 

[Christopher Mills]

I have not used the pro I/O
However, a project that can afford it will absolutely be a project that can afford double system sound... they for damn sure can afford a pro 4 track recorder with better pre amps than any camera , and a stable timecode clock... like a 744t!


Basically, don't put your audio eggs in the picture basket

 

[Marc Wielage]

Basically, don't put your audio eggs in the picture basket

:iagree:

All I've been able to determine is that the Sennheiser G2 and G3 reeivers seem to be the worst offenders - They use the output cable as the receiver's 2nd (diversity) antenna so I am suspicious that this is part of the problem... Yet I've never had problems with any other camera or mixer (and the G2's have been really popular for scratch track to camera, as they are affordable and generally pretty reliable).

This isn't a Red problem. I would go with something more high-end like a Lectro SR or Zaxcom RX900 receiver, both of which are stereo. Those, coupled with a powerful transmitter, will yield flawless sound provided the sound department checks out the RF spectrum in the area and adjusts accordingly. It's not rocket science to do -- it just takes experience and money.

I know the G2 and G3's are popular, but my feeling is they're pretty low-end options, and you generally get what you pay for.

 

[George Tsai]

Basically, don't put your audio eggs in the picture basket

Nice hehehe. I'm stealing that lol

 

[George Hupka]

:iagree:



This isn't a Red problem. I would go with something more high-end like a Lectro SR or Zaxcom RX900 receiver, both of which are stereo. Those, coupled with a powerful transmitter, will yield flawless sound provided the sound department checks out the RF spectrum in the area and adjusts accordingly. It's not rocket science to do -- it just takes experience and money.

I know the G2 and G3's are popular, but my feeling is they're pretty low-end options, and you generally get what you pay for.

I have to disagree, Marc, based on my experience.

No doubt the G2/G3 are not high end performers, but lots of people use these for scratch tracks every day with no problem at all, it's only with the Epic that they become completely unusable. The Epic seems to be better when I feed it a Lectro SR system, but again, who wants to spend the $ on an SR system for a scratch track?

I'm home now but unfortunately my SSD readers aren't yet, so I can't do a full test until the rest of my bags arrive.....

 

[George Hupka]

Well, I have no card reader so I can't do a real test, but so far it's not sounding pretty....

I hooked up the Pro I/O and connected a 442 mixer. The return feed from the camera has a pulsing hiss (pulsing differently in each channel, not together) - so, that could just be the monitor output but as I said I'll have to wait at least until next week to do a proper test. If it's being recorded this way, it would be completely uselss as primary sound, but you could get away with it as a scratch track. (Seemed to be free of clicks and pops and the other weirdness I was getting with the main camera inputs, but I haven't tried with a wireless yet!)

For old-timers, I would put this hiss at the same annoyance level as the "time code bleed" you used to hear on old BVW-400s when you rolled tape - When you know it's there you can kind of tune it out but you're not going to be using that return for anything except verifying that the camera is getting a signal. No comparison with the XLR-5 monitor output on Sony HD cameras, which is really quite clean.


In comparison, I have done jobs where I have run a Lectrosonics wireless directly into the Red One as the only audio source - fast turn-around needed, so single-system was a big deal - and although the monitoring did leave something to be desired, I never had any problems with the recorded sound (Once we got past those disastrous early firmware versions, that is.....)

I would love to hear more from others - maybe there is a bad batch of cameras out there and I have one of them. It just seems that audio with Epic has taken two steps back from where we were with Red One.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I have to disagree, Marc, based on my experience. No doubt the G2/G3 are not high end performers, but lots of people use these for scratch tracks every day with no problem at all, it's only with the Epic that they become completely unusable. The Epic seems to be better when I feed it a Lectro SR system, but again, who wants to spend the $ on an SR system for a scratch track?

Well... you've kind of refuted your own point. There are audio engineers who are reluctant to provide crap audio, even when it's just for a scratch track. And I have already encountered producers who go ahead and use the scratch track anyway, even when we provide separate files. At least my way... it's going to sound good either way. And the range is going to be far, far better than a G3 (using SMQ transmitters).

Note that the SR can be used for a lot of different things, not just a scratch track. An investment in good equipment is important for any pro doing serious work.

 

[Jude Byard]

Me three. I've done it numerous times. Would love to get the Pro I/O but I don't know how I would attach my AB plate to it. No holes.

Next problem.

 

[George Hupka]

I can appreciate your reluctance to "provide crap audio," but I'm mainly wearing my equipment rental hat here - on my own shoots I have always used two-system sound with Epic, period.

However, as someone who supplies equipment to others, it is obvious that many people DO want to go single-system, and that the majority of those who are going double-system are sending scratch track to camera with a relatively inexpensive system (Be it a G3, or even a Comtek) I'm not working on those shows, so they don't have to take my advice..... But I do have to deal with the complaints from customers who expect that a camera with audio inputs is able to actually record the audio that is being sent, and to be able to monitor that recording in a reliable manner.

 

[Mike P.]

Seriously? If the audio was good I'd be using it as much as possible. The difference between having the sound guy just record isos or having him record isos and send a line direct to the camera (reference or otherwise) is a matter of plugging in one cable. Then you'd have the opportunity to go with the isos if the in-cam can't be manipulated in post the way you need (which would be rare).

It's an unrealistic expectation to have industry-perfect audio in-camera. However, it's not crazy to expect perfectly acceptable audio without running into these kinds of hassles... I mean you drop $3-4k on an extra piece of hardware (which nears the price of a 744t) and you still don't get usable in-camera audio? That's ridiculous by any standard.

George, were you able to run any more official tests to find out if the pulsing wasn't caused by something else.

 

[George Hupka]

I am still waiting for my SSD readers to arrive, and my earlier tests were done with older firmware versions so that's all part of what makes Red troubleshooting so much fun...

Once I do that, I am going to start with a mixer and cable directly to the camera, no wireless at all, and see if I can get that to work reliably. baby steps!