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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic Advertising

Sorry guys but……we all have our points of views;

In Italy they say:
“Acqua cheta spacca I ponti”
Meaning “silent (river) water nocks down bridges”

I totally agree with Jarred’s policy.

Those who don’t know…..don’t need to know, or indeed ….. don’t wont to know!!!

And if they don’t know……shame on them! Or maybe…….they don’t deserve to know.
 
One DoP I met said he didn't like the Epic because the EVF doesn't have a mount that tilts up easily like the Canon C300....lol
Didn't matter that I told him I'd rather be able to put my EVF anywhere than be forced to have it in just one spot...


So much for basing one's camera choice on image quality....
 
Well lets be frank. Red is 10 times more popular than the Alexa period. pull any Joe schmo of the street. They know what an Red camera is or at least have heard about it. The only folks who swear against REd are Cinematographers, and Editors. Editors hate Red with a passion. I am very serious about this... Most houses that use Reds have to do full debayers and trans-codes for them or have in house editors. For small independents that rent, The norm these days is to rent an Alexa. They are renting for about 650 a day with lenses in LA.

Secondly. If Red is out to advertise they will actually end up increasing the cost of the cameras. Business 101. The Alexa cost so much because its from A foreign company doing business in many territories guaranteeing its retailers, rental houses etc premium returns. Arri is Also a national treasure. The German (psuedo socialist) government with its deep pockets will definitely help promote Arri if need be. We the consumers will suffer at the end. It is no hard for Arri to develop an 8k camera if they have to. Their earlier entries into the digital cinema world were disasters, the D21 and D20 compared to Sony's F900. They have learnt their lessons very well.

Red is sitting real pretty with the Epic and Scarlet at their price points. With the new announcement of the 15 stop RED dragon free with any current package over 50K, (which you have to spend to own an Epic anyway) more people will feel comfortable to buy Epics.

The Scarlet is a bit more vulnerable to the BlackMagic Camera. Heavy advertising from Blackmagic, combined with price-point will send indy filmmakers over to BM in droves. Every body will own one. Its a no brainer. We also know that eventually Blackmagic, Starting at rumored 2k, 13 stops, will eventually be able to bring to market a 4k camera. this is the company all are worried about. they have all the file based broadcast equipment and capital to make new acquisitions. I've seen IPhone and DSLR videos graded with Davinci and they look amazing.
 
shashbugu said:
Well lets be frank. Red is 10 times more popular than the Alexa period. pull any Joe schmo of the street. They know what an Red camera is or at least have heard about it.
Click to expand...
True. I've been stopped on the street by people not in the business asking me "is that a Red camera?" and I've had conversations in pubs with total strangers who overhead me talking about the Scarlet. People who read tech or gadget sites and magazines know about Red, Epic and Scarlet and they've never even heard of Alexa or the F65.
 
shashbugu said:
Well lets be frank. Red is 10 times more popular than the Alexa period. pull any Joe schmo of the street. They know what an Red camera is or at least have heard about it. The only folks who swear against REd are Cinematographers, and Editors. Editors hate Red with a passion. I am very serious about this... Most houses that use Reds have to do full debayers and trans-codes for them or have in house editors. For small independents that rent, The norm these days is to rent an Alexa. They are renting for about 650 a day with lenses in LA.
Click to expand...

You are right, RED has caught on as a viral brand. A lot of people have "heard" of RED, much more so than ALEXA. Unfortunately, RED is a luxury PROFESSIONAL item, and all that matters is what the pro's and producers are BUYING & RENTING. And in that regard...the trend seams to be swinging towards ALEXA.

I think it's because as you suggest...editor's hate RED and the ALEXA workflow is simply more familiar...not better...just very usable.

I work in edit every day, I'm a promo producer, and I can tell you that there is very little appreciation (at least in broadcast) for the power of RAW. They just don't get it.

It's stupid, but the industry moves slow, and RED is moving ahead so fast, that a lot of pros (DP's and Editor's alike) are either too lazy or impatient to really understand what RED can do.

Also...never forget...RED is a destabilizing force...they are constantly questioning the OLD MODELS of how todo things, and creating NEW ONES...and that pisses off a lot of people and causes a lot of resentment. RED has managed to shake up Hollywood in profound ways, and well...people are petty and vain...and they don't always like that.

I think we are in a new phase of RED hatred personally, I've never met more haters than I have the past couple of months since Scarlet came out. Makes me laugh.
 
In re: the BM camera cutting into Scarlet sales, I saw a post here on Reduser from a proud Scarlet owner who saw some high framerate footage from an Epic and his words were, "I've got to have that camera!" These other cameras do not have Red's ASIIC. And the cost of producing the one RED uses was so prohibitive, I doubt these other camera manufacturers are eager to develop their own. And if they copy RED's, well, we all know Jim has never lost a lawsuit.
 
shashbugu said:
Well lets be frank. Red is 10 times more popular than the Alexa period. pull any Joe schmo of the street. They know what an Red camera is or at least have heard about it.
Click to expand...

Which would be very cool if we were talking about a popularity contest. If you have 10.000 people who have never been on set (or who just don't really care) knowing about the camera, but 1 cinematographer expressing his dislike for it, which opinion would you think is more relevant? Which one would you trust more?

The only folks who swear against RED are Cinematographers, and Editors. Editors hate Red with a passion.
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Can't speak for editors, but I can safely say here in italy I still have to meet a camera assistant or camera operator who likes Red better than that other camera mentioned earlier. As for cinematographers, based on the words I've heard many, many times every time the conversation gets boring and steers into dangerous "that camera is better than this one", RED is perceived as "unreliable" and "difficult to use". Sometimes those words come from people with actual experience, other times they trust that opinion when it comes from their colleagues.

As for rental houses, well, at least here, even if they have RED cameras, they like the idea that that other camera company has offices in Milan, Rome and in every single country in Europe and that they can speak Italian over the phone to them. They just don't give a flying f*ck about Internet forums. If they have a problem with that other camera, they can have a person from that company actually going to talk to them in less than an hour. For some people, that kind of relationship is very important. Legacy is another factor, true, but if that other camera was an unusable piece of crap making ugly images, well, no one would use it just because of its name.


But going back to the question Mr. Collister asked in the first post, I don't know if an ad strategically put here or there would help. "Perception", imho, is the key word here. To change that, you need to change attitude and pretty much everything that Red has done differently compared to other companies. Why would Red do that? I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about marketing. If they haven't put ads online or in certain magazines, they probably don't see a need for it.

Just my 2€c.
 
I would suggest they run profiles on DOP's and projects shot on Red. Similar to what Kodak does in the trade publications. That way they can get the "Red" name out there attached to the projects and reputation of the DOP
 
shashbugu said:
Well lets be frank. Red is 10 times more popular than the Alexa period. pull any Joe schmo of the street. They know what an Red camera is or at least have heard about it. The only folks who swear against REd are Cinematographers, and Editors. Editors hate Red with a passion. I am very serious about this... Most houses that use Reds have to do full debayers and trans-codes for them or have in house editors. For small independents that rent, The norm these days is to rent an Alexa. They are renting for about 650 a day with lenses in LA.

Secondly. If Red is out to advertise they will actually end up increasing the cost of the cameras. Business 101. The Alexa cost so much because its from A foreign company doing business in many territories guaranteeing its retailers, rental houses etc premium returns. Arri is Also a national treasure. The German (psuedo socialist) government with its deep pockets will definitely help promote Arri if need be. We the consumers will suffer at the end. It is no hard for Arri to develop an 8k camera if they have to. Their earlier entries into the digital cinema world were disasters, the D21 and D20 compared to Sony's F900. They have learnt their lessons very well.

Red is sitting real pretty with the Epic and Scarlet at their price points. With the new announcement of the 15 stop RED dragon free with any current package over 50K, (which you have to spend to own an Epic anyway) more people will feel comfortable to buy Epics.

The Scarlet is a bit more vulnerable to the BlackMagic Camera. Heavy advertising from Blackmagic, combined with price-point will send indy filmmakers over to BM in droves. Every body will own one. Its a no brainer. We also know that eventually Blackmagic, Starting at rumored 2k, 13 stops, will eventually be able to bring to market a 4k camera. this is the company all are worried about. they have all the file based broadcast equipment and capital to make new acquisitions. I've seen IPhone and DSLR videos graded with Davinci and they look amazing.
Click to expand...

Which continent you are from? Im living in Turkey and worked with many international DP's mainly europeans (german and brits) they always say RED camera needs to be bashed on the ground because it deserve it.Everybody hates it! dont think advertisement will change anything in here from my side :) at least for these kind of people in cinema industry.
 
Ted Parkes said:
I would suggest they run profiles on DOP's and projects shot on Red. Similar to what Kodak does in the trade publications. That way they can get the "Red" name out there attached to the projects and reputation of the DOP
Click to expand...

Only to have another company put a similar ad with the same cinematographer on a different project, praising another camera. Thankfully, most cinematographers are not so partisan about which tool they use. Maybe it's just me, and I've said it way too many times, but who cares? It's just a tool. The differences between cameras these days are far less than the similarities.
If someone wants to shoot on Epic, FINE!
Alexa? FINE!
Sony? FINE!
Film (yes, FILM)? FINE!

If RED (the company) feels like the perception they have in the filmmaking community is not the one they'd like to have, they perfectly know how to change it. But imho it looks like they're absolutely happy with how things are.
I know this is RedUser, but the obsession for "this camera is so much better than the other" is getting kind of old, and pretty fast.

The great Vilmos Zsigmond has been quoted on this very forum saying amazing things about Epic. A few months later, there was a quote by him on how happy he was with Alexa. And pretty much at the same time, there was an interview with him where he was clearly stating film was still his favourite thing.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Which continent you are from? Im living in Turkey and worked with many international DP's mainly europeans (german and brits) they always say RED camera needs to be bashed on the ground because it deserve it.Everybody hates it! dont think advertisement will change anything in here from my side :) at least for these kind of people in cinema industry.
Click to expand...


Yeah ++ The amount of times I have gotten grumbling about my rig (which I am very proud of) is astounding... But to be honest, Alexa owner's feelings are hurt because they got their buts handed to them and at a much higher price. That is why they put the Epic and Scarlet down because they are better cameras. It ended with a undergrad teacher talking about how terrible the RED family of cameras are... Yeah, that's why the Epics outnumber the Alexa 5 to 2 now at Grad Film ( 2 in Singapore and 2 in NYC ). Game Over?!? ;)
 
I just find it so strange that Red is far less represented in the American Cinematographer, and i.e. also in the German equivalent, the "Kameramann" magazine (which sucks anyway!).
It's maybe not all about advertising efforts, but also about being bullied by "the system"?
 
The best way for us Redusers to be proactive and address any "advertising" concerns is to make the next wave of films to rock this industry. For the first time ever, anyone from a beginner, to a seasoned pro can afford the most advanced camera system on earth. Red has opened the door and I can't wait to see what and who will walk through it. Sure, there's stiff competition spreading FUD all around, but in the end, this war will be won in the trenches, by the next wave of brilliant new filmakers, and Red has seen fit to arm them with the best tools available. Epic and Scarlet has just been released into the wild, thousands of new "films" are being made as we speak.

The Beta/VHS example is a great one, because what won that battle was not advertising, but economics, and perhaps with a bit of help from another little industry called porn. lol Now when it comes to institutional support, ie studios, rental houses and universities, once they see all their Alexas needing replacement in a year or so (whenever Arri decides to jump ship and catch up with a 4,6 whatever "K" camera), it will be a bitter pill to swallow. Especially when those Epics they also invested in are not only still cutting edge, but can be upgraded for only 6 grand! Now this is monumentally more significant to the indie production, where these economies of scale can mean the difference between making the film or not, paying the bills or not, success or failure, life or death (yeah, I know, tad melodramatic).

But not everyone can be the next Kubrick, for the rest of us, I recommend a more grassroots viral campaign to spread the truth via internet. Post those comparison videos, tell us your experiences, debunk the myths! It's not only effective enough to topple governments, but the best part is, its free.
 
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Sebastian Winkels said:
I just find it so strange that Red is far less represented in the American Cinematographer, and i.e. also in the German equivalent, the "Kameramann" magazine (which sucks anyway!).
It's maybe not all about advertising efforts, but also about being bullied by "the system"?
Click to expand...

You have a point, there have been A LOT of Alexa articles recently in AC...Game of Thrones, Roger Deakins, Borgias, etc.

And The Avengers will be next month in June.

The last RED article I can remember is Christopher Probst's a month or two back, and of course Girl With The Dragon Tatoo.
 
Michael Ou said:
The best way for us Redusers to be proactive and address any "advertising" concerns is to make the next wave of films to rock this industry. For the first time ever, anyone from a beginner, to a seasoned pro can afford the most advanced camera system on earth. Red has opened the door and I can't wait to see what and who will walk through it. Sure, there's stiff competition spreading FUD all around, but in the end, this war will be won in the trenches, by the next wave of brilliant new filmakers, and Red has seen fit to arm them with the best tools available. Epic and Scarlet has just been released into the wild, thousands of new "films" are being made as we speak.

The Beta/VHS example is a great one, because what won that battle was not advertising, but economics, and perhaps with a bit of help from another little industry called porn. lol Now when it comes institutional support, ie studios, rental houses and universities, once they see all their Alexas needing replacement in a year or so (whenever Arri decides to jump ship and catch up with a 4,6 whatever "K" camera), it will be a bitter pill to swallow. Especially when those Epics they also invested in are not only still cutting edge, but can be upgraded for only 6 grand! Now this is monumentally more significant to the indie production, where these economies of scale can mean the difference between making the film or not, paying the bills or not, success or failure, life or death (yeah, I know, tad melodramatic).

But not everyone can be the next Kubrick, for the rest of us, I recommend a more grassroots viral campaign to spread the truth via internet. Post those comparison videos, tell us your experiences, debunk the myths! It's not only effective enough to topple governments, but the best part is, its free.
Click to expand...

True, but if RED released a truly robust DNX/PRORES proxie module that output perfect 444 Log Quicktimes....that would also go a LONG WAY towards overcoming the last area where the Alexa has a perceived "edge"....the (all-be-it flawed) notion that it's post workflow is "easier" because it's completely quicktime based.

This...and the new dragon senor...will make RED incredibly hard to compete with, especially considering their price point vs Alexa.
 
Mark Toia said:
VHS Vs BETACAM.....

Solid Marketing and perception made the worst of these two win.....

RED should spend wisely and smash the competition in marketing.

Or they could end up being betacam.

REDBULL sales are MEGA!!!! . Massive marketing campaigns.. taste like shit and gives people heart attacks and strokes...

I work in the advertising world at a ery hi level. I see this shit going on daily.
Perception is everything.
Click to expand...

Show me a company not advertising and I'll show you a company losing out.
 
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