Anyone seen footage from sony F65?

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Bruce...
Please dont dare to confuse a real understanding of technology and the results it produces with folks who bet the farm on an Epic.
It's not unlike discussing the merits of "a woman's right to choose" with a nun.

 

[Tom Lowe]

And I will answer for (by your count) the fourth and hopefully last time, that many, many people disagree with your assessment. People who shoot different things than you do under different conditions than you do. That doesn't make them right and you wrong or vice versa. If there were one right answer to any of these questions, there would be one form factor, one accepted aesthetic, one type of lens, and probably one manufacturer. There isn't because different people have different needs and different ways of filling them. I would point out that many in the industry would probably say that adding weights and cages to a tiny camera that weighs very little is also pretty darned illogical. That doesn't make it so, it just makes it something they wouldn't do. You would do well to understand and accept that your views are just your views, based in your own personal taste and your own personal shooting circumstances, and stop trying to project them on others who don't happen to work under the same circumstances.

The circumstances of what type of filming is being done is completely and totally irrelevant. If Sony makes an F65 the size of an iPhone, but you prefer the size and weight and balance of a larger F65 and think that it is superior, then simply build an exterior cage for the iPhone-sized F65 that 100% mimics the weight and balance and connection points of the larger F65, and all your problems will be solved!! This is simple logic. There is no counter-argument, which is why no one is even attempting to make one.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

The circumstances of what type of filming is being done is completely and totally irrelevant. If Sony makes an F65 the size of an iPhone, but you prefer the size and weight and balance of a larger F65 and think that it is superior, then simply build an exterior cage for the iPhone-sized F65 that 100% mimics the weight and balance and connection points of the larger F65, and all your problems will be solved!! This is simple logic. There is no counter-argument, which is why no one is even attempting to make one.

Why should I have to go through the trouble of "Building a cage" why can't digital cameras be like film cameras were were you had a big one and a smaller one that maybe some tradeoffs to make it small, sure If I wanted to I could just buy the smaller one and build a cage around it but say I didn't want to build a cage or find someone who makes cages, say I just want a camera thats around the size of an f65 because I'm a nostalgic idiot or what not, why can't they this option be offered to me if I'm willing to pay for it?

 

[Vance Colvig]

I have not waded through all of these posts on this thread............it might have been said before...........but I just do not see any of the "traditional" professional cinema camera manufacturers adopt the operating phylosophy "we make obsolesence obsolete". None that I know besides Red have offered a sensor upgrade like the MX and soon to be Dragon. Consider what Red Gamma 3 does with footage shot on a non-MX sensor on build 10 footage. Who else does stuff like this? The quality of footage shot 4 years ago looks like it was shot last week (or pretty close to it if properly exposed). How many offer an integrated module that has the features of the Meizler? How many others manufacturer lenses, yet go out of their way to offer advanced mounts for other lens manufacturers to integrate with their cameras? I prefer to put my money on a product built by a company that has both my and their best future interests in mind. It feels more like a partnership than consumership.......and besides.....my Red One MX and EpicX make pictures I am thrilled with, and will for years and years to come. The images will just be getting better and better. I like that.

 

[RikiButland]

I have to completely agree with Mark Toia Prores is not Raw ...
take an empty fizzy drinks can, place it on the floor, smash it flat, now try to pull it back to how it was.
see how it looks like crap?
that my old darlings is called compression LOL

 

[Matt Ryan]

I have not waded through all of these posts on this thread............it might have been said before...........but I just do not see any of the "traditional" professional cinema camera manufacturers adopt the operating phylosophy "we make obsolesence obsolete". None that I know besides Red have offered a sensor upgrade like the MX and soon to be Dragon. Consider what Red Gamma 3 does with footage shot on a non-MX sensor on build 10 footage. Who else does stuff like this? The quality of footage shot 4 years ago looks like it was shot last week (or pretty close to it if properly exposed). How many offer an integrated module that has the features of the Meizler? How many others manufacturer lenses, yet go out of their way to offer advanced mounts for other lens manufacturers to integrate with their cameras? I prefer to put my money on a product built by a company that has both my and their best future interests in mind. It feels more like a partnership than consumership.......and besides.....my Red One MX and EpicX make pictures I am thrilled with, and will for years and years to come. The images will just be getting better and better. I like that.

Very well spoken. This thread has gotten a bit out of hand and this helps bring things back into perspective.

There will always be bias and disagreements about camera's but in the end each one of us is responsible in getting great images regardless of the camera or tool at hand. I think too often we focus on Brands, and Marketing schemes, Misinformation, and Specs (Sometimes we discuss and bring up things we have no first hand knowledge of). All these things are well and good but it's time to get back to basics and if your a shooter, just go out and shoot. If your in post, get the best images you can get with what you are given. It is a time in history where we are no longer limited by the technology, rather our own abilities....

Skin tones, that is subjective and opinions change from one year to another. Pale skin tones are in, then orange skin tones, then green, then neutral... I'd prefer to begin RAW and have the flexibility.

My mini rant is over. Cheers :beer:

P.S. I think RED skin tones are much better than the Alexa's, pre grade (And I've shot with both). Just my opinion.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think SONY cannot afford to compete with RED this year, maybe in 2015. Just announced: ...TOKYO (MarketWatch) -- Sony Corp. said Tuesday it now expects to book an even bigger-than-expected net loss of $6.4 billion for the just-ended business year...

Note that most of Sony's loss was due to the Japanese earthquake and flood, factories being damaged, the bad global economy, and downward-spiraling prices for TV sets. The pro sector of Sony is only responsible for a small fraction of their profits.

I agree with Mike: I don't think the size of the F65 is going to be a factor for Hollywood productions (TV, features, or commercials). The camera is no bigger than the Alexa, and crews adapted to that just fine. It's still not much bigger than a Panaflex was 10 years ago, and that pretty much set the standard for cameras and crews back in the day.

 

[Jay Birch]

Regarding the size of the F65.... I thought the front end has to be that big to accommodate the mechanical shutter and ND filters? Imagine that dumped onto the front of something the size of Epic.... It would be an ergonomic nightmare.

Looks to me like they chose to make the whole body that wide (it is actually quite short). I don't see much wrong with the size, outside of 3D shooting.

 

[M Most]

The circumstances of what type of filming is being done is completely and totally irrelevant. If Sony makes an F65 the size of an iPhone, but you prefer the size and weight and balance of a larger F65 and think that it is superior, then simply build an exterior cage for the iPhone-sized F65 that 100% mimics the weight and balance and connection points of the larger F65, and all your problems will be solved!! This is simple logic. There is no counter-argument, which is why no one is even attempting to make one.

If it ends this endless discussion.....

OK, I give up. You're right. I and anyone else who sees things in this ridiculous outdated way are completely wrong and clearly clueless idiots with no experience in the subject matter we're talking about. I bow to your superior experience and knowledge and will never again think that there's any other way. And I hereby request that Sony, Arri, and all the other dinosaur companies out there immediately cease and desist, stop the madness, and dismantle any and all manufacturing facilities that are building cameras that are even 1 millimeter larger in any dimension than Scarlet, because if they don't, the world will be inexorably held back from any further progress and new, creative projects will never be undertaken because clearly shooting such things is simply impossible on such form factors.

Does that do it?

PS - sorry for losing it. I usually try to maintain the high road and show some sense of decorum here, but that seems to be getting nowhere. I try very hard to not make my posts personal and stick to just the subject matter, but you seem very intent on continuing this ad infinitum. But I'm not, so I'm done. :hurray:

 

[Tom Lowe]

If it ends this endless discussion.....

OK, I give up. You're right. I and anyone else who sees things in this ridiculous outdated way are completely wrong and clearly clueless idiots with no experience in the subject matter we're talking about. I bow to your superior experience and knowledge and will never again think that there's any other way. And I hereby request that Sony, Arri, and all the other dinosaur companies out there immediately cease and desist, stop the madness, and dismantle any and all manufacturing facilities that are building cameras that are even 1 millimeter larger in any dimension than Scarlet, because if they don't, the world will be inexorably held back from any further progress and new, creative projects will never be undertaken because clearly shooting such things is simply impossible on such form factors.

Does that do it?

Yep, that about covers it. :smilielol5:

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

PUSSY!!!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

 

[Mark Toia]

Mark: Just pushing the colors to where they should be for flesh tones in post doesn't help much if the color variations across real skin are lost because they were never captured.

1. Just because a camera is RAW doesn't mean it has captured all of the subtleties of color in the scene. The color filters in front of the sensor are never perfectly pure and their spectral sensitivity is not necessarily exactly the same as a human eye, or motion picture film for that matter. Plus there is built in compression and some kind of noise reduction stuff going on in R3Ds that we can't turn off. Combine all that with certain lighting conditions that don't work to the sensors' color filters' best advantage and it means that you have a real danger of a RAW image that just doesn't capture certain variations in color.

2. I'm not sure why you think that Arri ProRes doesn't have the latitude of a 16bit R3D... I don't care if something is storing 128bit RAW... if the highlights are clipped and the blacks are noisy but you have another camera shooting 8bit JPEGS with clean blacks and smooth highlight detail, then the 8bit cam has better latitude. Extreme example of course - but numbers don't mean much on their own.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I give up. You win... Arri's color baked pro res is better than RED RAW. Bruce.. Your way smarter than me.
Ive been doing it so wrong this whole time.

I'm outta here.

 

[M Most]

Yep, that about covers it. :smilielol5:

Well, if nothing else, at least we proved that we both have a sense of humor. And that's a good thing.. :thumbsup:

 

[Bruce Allen]

I give up. You win... Arri's color baked pro res is better than RED RAW. Bruce.. Your way smarter than me.
Ive been doing it so wrong this whole time.

Sigh... you're missing the whole point. Let me try another way:

Do you prefer skin tones from RED RAW workflow (where "nothing is baked in")?

Or skin tones from 35mm motion picture film workflow (where Tungsten or Daylight response is "baked in" by virtue of you choosing stock)?

Whether basic stuff like color temp is "baked in" or not is not the primary consideration of picture quality and things like subtle color details. As long as you didn't make huge errors on set and chose the total wrong color temperature, of course.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Frank Driscoll]

I have not waded through all of these posts on this thread............it might have been said before...........but I just do not see any of the "traditional" professional cinema camera manufacturers adopt the operating phylosophy "we make obsolesence obsolete". None that I know besides Red have offered a sensor upgrade like the MX and soon to be Dragon. Consider what Red Gamma 3 does with footage shot on a non-MX sensor on build 10 footage. Who else does stuff like this? The quality of footage shot 4 years ago looks like it was shot last week (or pretty close to it if properly exposed). How many offer an integrated module that has the features of the Meizler? How many others manufacturer lenses, yet go out of their way to offer advanced mounts for other lens manufacturers to integrate with their cameras? I prefer to put my money on a product built by a company that has both my and their best future interests in mind. It feels more like a partnership than consumership.......and besides.....my Red One MX and EpicX make pictures I am thrilled with, and will for years and years to come. The images will just be getting better and better. I like that.

Obviously not very successful and albeit expensive in 2009 Sony offered their SRW9000 owners the option to upgrade their 2/3" camera to a 35mm sensor PL mount. The marketing terms they used back then were "Camcorder for Life" and "Future Proofed Roadmap"

Reading over the press release really shows how much things have changed in the past 2 years for Sony and the industry itself.
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/content/i...home?filter_id=redirects&preserveContext=true

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Arri tries to steal secrets, they are scared, they are behind, and sometimes a pig is a pig. Sony, whatever love affair you might have with them are reacting to what RED has started. I am sorry but the might be doing great things, RED is doing the greatest things by leaps and bounds and RED is not that transparent, only when people steal their secrets which has been documented.

it was not ARRI! btw i love this thread so much funny comments

But this ignores the fact that Sony had been selling 2/3" 1080p cameras for a quarter of a million dollars and sticking indy shootes with 1/3 chips in order to "protect" their massively overpriced 2/3 1080p cameras. If you think Sony would have released a S35 4K camera right now for under $10K without Jim Jannard and Red pressuring them, I think you would have a very difficult time supporting that assertion, based on facts and evidence.

Tom you are saying all the camera manufacturers ripping us except RED.Please open inside the 128Gb Redmag check whats in there and tell me why RED is selling 200$ cheap toshiba ssd for 1800$ ?

 

[Martin Chab]

F65 hands on review here: www.zitrin.se/f65/
First let me clarify: i do not endorse sony in any way, i have no relationship with them whatsoever, i don't own an f65 nor a red camera, i just use the tool that i consider well suited for each kind of job (or sometimes the one that is given to me :-( )