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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Scarlet / Canon / Sony frustration

Gavin Greenwalt said:
Well If you didn't include batteries (which the 1D doesn't include either it would bring you down to $15.9k and if you bought one 64GB card and were willing to shoot 12:1 you could shoot about an hour of footage on one card for $15k.

*:

$11,700 (body, SSD drive, Al Mount)
$1,500 (5" Touchscreen)
$1900 (2x 64GB cards)
$600 Wooden Camera V-Mount
$400 4x 95wh batteries (Axrtec)
$200 V-Mount Charger
$200 Redstation (USB3)

$16,500
Click to expand...

But neither camera is ready to shoot for $15k, or even $16.5 that was my point. You couldn't walk on to a job with that kit and be able to function. It doesn't speak directly to what Mike P. was talking about, but that was the point none the less.

I am in agreement with his larger point. No Canon thus far is a clear winner over Scarlet. I prefer what Scarlet has to offer, and at a similar price point it is a no brainer; Scarlet all the way... For me. In addition I would simply NOT invest that kind of money in an 8-bit system at all regardless of resolution. I want to develop this stuff.
 
Well the job was a race. My point was, specs and numbers DO matter when you have a specific job to do.. in this example, a car race.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Hmm, agree, Gavin. However... also in Canon C300's favor:

1. cost of media
Click to expand...

I assume you mean 1D-C. But actually price after I added all the shit up you would need could be pretty painful as well (more than a comparable RED package). I assumed 1hr per battery when shooting 4k. Who knows how close that is. Anyone know how long an LP-E4 lasts when shooting 1080p?

And you'll want a better monitor for focusing than the back LCD which is almost certainly crap.

And 64GB Highspeed CFs aren't that cheap.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Well the job was a race. My point was, specs and numbers DO matter when you have a specific job to do.. in this example, it a car race.
Click to expand...

Your work requires the ultimate in cutting edge technology with little regard to cost, size or speed to set up and use (IMAX). But there is only one of you and many of others that might have to create and compete at 8 bit since that is all they can afford or what is appropriate for budget and speed. No worries, not everyone can afford a Ferrari or want one. I would chose a GT3-RS 4.0 personally . . . but drive a Prius and shoot RED.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Not by any stretch a knockout punch.
And by the time the 1D-C is out we'll have Dragon-Scarlet most likely. But the 1D-C does look like a good 4k lightweight self-sustained documentary camera. Much easier to load up on CF-Cards and hit the wilds than a laptop and REDCard reader.

Well If you didn't include batteries (which the 1D doesn't include either it would bring you down to $15.9k and if you bought one 64GB card and were willing to shoot 12:1 you could shoot about an hour of footage on one card for $15k.

*:

Scarlet:
$11,700 (body, SSD drive, Al Mount)
$1,500 (5" Touchscreen)
$1900 (2x 64GB cards)
$600 (Wooden Camera V-Mount)
$400 (4x 95wh batteries Axrtec)
$200 (V-Mount Charger)
$200 (Redstation USB3)
$200 (Wooden Camera SideHandle)

$16,700
Click to expand...


How did you end up with that price?

SCARLET-X PACKAGE (AL CANON MOUNT) Includes:
SCARLET-X brain
Al CANON MOUNT
DSMC® SSD SIDE MODULE
DSMC® SIDE HANDLE
RED PRO 5” TOUCH LCD (comes with 7” LCD/EVF Cable and RED MicroFiber Bag – Medium)
2x REDVolts®
1x REDMAG 1.8" 64GB
RED STATION® 1.8"
AC POWER ADAPTOR (DSMC)
DSMC® TRAVEL CHARGER
1-Year Warranty

$15,965

Canon:
Click to expand...
$15,000 (body, mount etc)
$690 (6x LP-E4 Batteries)
$879 (2x SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB Cards) (Is this fair? Will it use substantially less space than a Scarlet?)
$450 (SmallHD 4" LCD) (Is the new 1D's LCD usable?)

$17,019
Click to expand...
Add external recorder for uncompressed 4:2:2 for 1D-C to the price.

 
Iannis Holwech said:
How did you end up with that price?
SCARLET-X PACKAGE (AL CANON MOUNT) Includes:
$15,965

Add external recorder for uncompressed 4:2:2 for 1D-C to the price.
http://img260.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=427693343_1dc_press22_122_9lo.jpg
Click to expand...

$16k for the Basic Package only includes 1x 64GB card (not enough) and 2hours of battery (also not enough). If I only had 16.5k I would go with V-Mount and 2x SSDs.

Uncompressed 4:2:2 is for 1080p. RED doesn't shoot uncompressed 1080p either. So there is no reason to add it.
 
Hmmm..... Was it "3K for 3K Scarlet" Koolaid i bought into a while back?
Yeah, alot of us drank that brew ......and what we got was a "4K for 16K Scarlet".
So, PLEASE don't anyone dare go there about Sony or Canon doing you dirty with their pricing....
 
BRANDON JAMESON said:
Hmmm..... Was it "3K for 3K Scarlet" Koolaid i bought into a while back?
Yeah, alot of us drank that brew ......and what we got was a "4K for 16K Scarlet".
So, PLEASE don't anyone dare go there about Sony or Canon doing you dirty with their pricing....
Click to expand...

True. But then again the Scarlet-X is closer to the S35 Scarlet in specs which was something like $7.000 for the brain only. And the Scarlet-X is $9.700 for the brain only and that's not world's biggest price increase, especially when you take into concideration what happened during 2008-2011.
 
Thing when buying cameras and other equipment, is to find out what specs are important to you.

High FPS?
To me : Nope
To others : Yes

High bit depth/low compression
To me : Crucial
To others : Maybe not so much

Practical resolution above 1080
To me : very nice to have in quite a few situations.
For stills: Crucial

To others:
Maybe not all that important


Controll over debayering/ISO/WB in post
To me : Crucial

To quite a few in practical work : Confusing and prohibitive

So there you go!

Pick your poison...
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Feature[/TD]
[TD]RED Scarlet-X[/TD]
[TD]Canon 1D-C[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Price (shooting package)[/TD]
[TD]~$16.5k*[/TD]
[TD]~$16.5k*[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4k fps[/TD]
[TD]30p[/TD]
[TD]24p[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4k Sensor Size[/TD]
[TD]s35[/TD]
[TD]APS-H[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Low Light Noise[/TD]
[TD]Good[/TD]
[TD]Great[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RAW[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bit Depth[/TD]
[TD]16bps (14?)[/TD]
[TD]8bps[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chroma Sampling[/TD]
[TD]~4:4:4[/TD]
[TD]4:2:2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dynamic Range[/TD]
[TD]~13 stops[/TD]
[TD]~13+??[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rolling Shutter[/TD]
[TD]??[/TD]
[TD]??[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Debayer[/TD]
[TD]Full[/TD]
[TD]Binning[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Footage Processing Time[/TD]
[TD]Eons[/TD]
[TD]None[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Weight[/TD]
[TD]8 lbs +[/TD]
[TD]< 5 lbs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Volume[/TD]
[TD]Little Noisy[/TD]
[TD]Silent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SDI/HDMI Output[/TD]
[TD]10bit[/TD]
[TD]8bit[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Expandability[/TD]
[TD]Sensor Upgrade[/TD]
[TD]Sell/Repurchase[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stills[/TD]
[TD]5k APS-H @ 12fps RAW[/TD]
[TD]*5k FF35 @ 12fps RAW[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lens Mount[/TD]
[TD]Interchangeable[/TD]
[TD]Fixed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Integrated HDR[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]No[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Availability[/TD]
[TD]In-Stock[/TD]
[TD]"by End of 2012"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...


Looks close enough IMO.

Adding some additional elements might show clearer distinction between options for individual priorities.
Bruce mentioned some important ones. This might help also:

- Monitoring included (ridiculous fixed 3:2 tiny LCD for 1D, and necessity to purchase additional)
- Recording media availability (in case one has to quickly acquire more)
- Proprietary/off the shelf recording media (widespread usage limitations)

Gavin Greenwalt said:
Well If you didn't include batteries (which the 1D doesn't include either it would bring you down to $15.9k and if you bought one 64GB card and were willing to shoot 12:1 you could shoot about an hour of footage on one card for $15k.
Click to expand...


Choosing 12:1 is not using the same priorities as Scarlet purchase. Shooting 5:1 is.
In that case $3K for storage for relatively comfortable average shoot is a minimum.


Gavin Greenwalt said:
(Not that 16bits does any good for a 13 stop sensor).
Click to expand...

Not sure what was implied with that.
 
David W. Jones said:
It's a question of the right tool for the job!

Try picking up a family of five from the airport in a Ferrari.
The 150hp minivan has the clear advantage here.

Same holds true for cameras. Pick the right tool for the job at hand.

All the Best!

Dave
Click to expand...
LOL Accurate post.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Thing when buying cameras and other equipment, is to find out what specs are important to you.

High FPS?
To me : Nope
To others : Yes

High bit depth/low compression
To me : Crucial
To others : Maybe not so much

Practical resolution above 1080
To me : very nice to have in quite a few situations.
For stills: Crucial

To others:
Maybe not all that important


Controll over debayering/ISO/WB in post
To me : Crucial

To quite a few in practical work : Confusing and prohibitive

So there you go!

Pick your poison...
Click to expand...
;-)
 
I'm still just seeing specs and numbers, I guess that is fair enough, as we don't have any test footage. But it is hard to deny the C300 has beautiful IQ.... skin tones are some of the nicest i've seen in the digital realm. If they can transfer that IQ/Look over to the C-DSLR, it will be a nice addition to the 4K market.

To use the car analogy.... I'd prefer an E-type Jaguar over a lime green Lamborghini. Image is important :smiley:
 
Jay Birch said:
I'm still just seeing specs and numbers, I guess that is fair enough, as we don't have any test footage. But it is hard to deny the C300 has beautiful IQ.... skin tones are some of the nicest i've seen in the digital realm. If they can transfer that IQ/Look over to the C-DSLR, it will be a nice addition to the 4K market.

To use the car analogy.... I'd prefer an E-type Jaguar over a lime green Lamborghini. Image is important :smiley:
Click to expand...


LOL
That's fun. The compressed skintones is actually the thing I really dislike about the C300.

Good example of: To each his own! :)
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
With respect to your aesthetic, I understand your point but that is not heavy grading.
Click to expand...

That's why I used the word "fairly"... What I mean is, the editor has chosen an cold, somewhat unnatural look in post (last two shots), yet the skin tones still look natural, to me.
 
I understand what you are saying, but it is not even "fairy heavy grading". Picture look may sometimes seem as a significant alteration of the original but it is not always the case, such as with these examples, where simple primary corrections with slight hue shift are only a mild actual alteration in terms of pushing the material.

Linked grabs show that C300 can produce nice imagery out of the box, but grading range for this codec is very limited.
I'm not disputing your perception at all, but terminology in the statement can easily lead to misconceptions.
 
Jay Birch said:
ok, fair enough.

Have you used or graded the C300 though? I thought it held up well to grading... Obviously not close to RAW, but it impressed me.
Click to expand...
Not only you. Canon products have shown imagerie of very pleasant quality, no less than others for the same price.
 
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