EPIC being challenged by the 5D people...

[jorge krausch]

nice pics Patrick.. amazing stuff.. it confirms my dream of a lamps free shoot Was born in CHUV hehe i miss those metros they had over the ground. I remember as a child waiting for the lights from the opposite train to appear in the tunnel. Gona definitely take my Epic (when i get it) to lausanne.

 

[jorge krausch]

thanks Andy.. very exciting info..

 

[Patrick Tresch]

And the good thing is :

- you don't see the sensor pattern wich is really strong on the 5D. (you could've seen it in some extend with the One-M at high iso)
- your sensor will not wary in the shot depending on sensor heat / darkness or light of the scene
- NO blocking
- noise is pleasing

Pat

 

[Gunleik Groven]

i dont want to sound like a crazy guy.. but a deep part of me believes a future with lighting-free filmmaking. A sensor as sensitive as the human eye. Using real available light.. after all, isnt lighting basically a way to try to make an image equivalent of what the human eye sees? Lighting in the future i think will just be for artistic expression, to make images differ to what a person sees day to day. because the sensor will no longer need it. just a crazy theory

No. Disagree!

Lighting (in a dramatical/feature/fiction production) is about storytelling, moods and giving focus to what you want your audience to see and interpret.

It is not about "being able to see what was in front of the lens" but about telling a story, giving a mood and support the actors, the plot and the story.

Sometimes that is done in available light. Sure.
But even then you choose a solution that fits the story....

 

[Graeme Nattress]

One thing to remember is that many cameras achieve their low light performance at the expense of dynamic range and resolution. REDs don't sacrifice either. I've seen low light camera tests comparing M-X to 5D2, and to say that the 5D2 looked ugly with blown highlights and posterized skin-tone is an understatement. The M-X looked just fine - best of the bunch in fact, and this was on a film-out to equalize all the cameras tested.

Graeme

 

[Bob Gundu]

I look at this way... if you don't need 4k or 5K images, why even consider a RED? Plenty of other cameras that are capable at HD. If low-light is more of a concern, than all the other goodies RED offers, I think the answer is clear what you need.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

No. Disagree!

Lighting (in a dramatical/feature/fiction production) is about storytelling, moods and giving focus to what you want your audience to see and interpret.

It is not about "being able to see what was in front of the lens" but about telling a story, giving a mood and support the actors, the plot and the story.

Sometimes that is done in available light. Sure.
But even then you choose a solution that fits the story....

Agreed. "Lighting free filmmaking" is just another way to say "lazy filmmaking" in my opinion.

 

[jorge krausch]

I totally agree Gunleik.. but thats what i meant by artistic expression or storytelling.. mood giving etc.. giving focus or molding the truth.. But it all started in my opinion because the first film stocks needed lots and lots and lots of light to get anything.
I always found make-up and lamps-free filmmaking more fascinating. Lamps will remain but for exactly that.. mood giving and focusing us on certain things.. but real life doesnt do that.. its fiction. Which is ok if thats what you want the audience to sense.
I dont know.. make-up and certain lights always made me conscious i was watching a film.. but thats me of course. I mean.. like those women who wake up with make-up on..

 

[Trevor Meeks]

I look at this way... if you don't need 4k or 5K images, why even consider a RED? Plenty of other cameras that are capable at HD. If low-light is more of a concern, than all the other goodies RED offers, I think the answer is clear what you need.

almost exactly what I was about to add to my other post. 'Nuff said.

 

[Naim Sutherland]

i dont want to sound like a crazy guy.. but a deep part of me believes a future with lighting-free filmmaking. A sensor as sensitive as the human eye. Using real available light.. after all, isnt lighting basically a way to try to make an image equivalent of what the human eye sees? Lighting in the future i think will just be for artistic expression, to make images differ to what a person sees day to day. because the sensor will no longer need it. just a crazy theory

This post makes me sad. Do people really think like this? Is this the attitude of "younger" DPs?

 

[Justin Chin]

This goes back to Gunleik's comment. All this depends on what you are shooting and what you want as a cinematographer (or in plenty of cases what your client wants). The art of cinematography is all about choices. Not choices in how much gear, but choices on what you want to deliver to your audience. I've shot documentary footage in plenty of places without lights - I just had to make choices as to what I wanted the image to be, and stick to the tone and feel of the project I was on.

So if you wan to shoot all available light, go for it. It can be amazing.

But if I'm shooting for drama, I'll bring whatever G&E I need and the project can afford.

i dont want to sound like a crazy guy.. but a deep part of me believes a future with lighting-free filmmaking. A sensor as sensitive as the human eye. Using real available light.. after all, isnt lighting basically a way to try to make an image equivalent of what the human eye sees? Lighting in the future i think will just be for artistic expression, to make images differ to what a person sees day to day. because the sensor will no longer need it. just a crazy theory

 

[jorge krausch]

Sorry trevor not lazyness.. I only sleep cos my body forces me to. Been filming since i was eight with and without heavy lights I just love to brainstorm theories with people in the field. They fascinate me.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

No. Disagree!

Lighting (in a dramatical/feature/fiction production) is about storytelling, moods and giving focus to what you want your audience to see and interpret.

;-) It make me think the old question about :

what is the difference between God and a dop?
God don't think he is a dop...

Well, moods can exist without the intervention of a dop. Capturing that mood can be the job of a dop.
It all depends on how close to the available light condition your story fits.

Pat

 

[Justin Chin]

Oh and Patrick T. Beautiful, beautiful images. Great choices

 

[Phil Holland]

I'll chime in here because my experience is "applicable".

I was literally the first guy to have HDSLR material from the 5D Mark II on screen in theaters. Been using them on features since late 2008.

I've also been working with Red material for a few years. The Red Epic is better in pretty much every possible way you can imagine. Dynamic range and how you process your ISO 6400 material is the key to success.

Once you get a 5D Mark II up to ISO 2500 it's "pain time". ISO 5000 is possible with extreme noise reduction and sharpening techniques. The biggest issue at this point with HDSLR material in general is that it falls apart due to lack of resolution and dynamic range, especially pushed to that level. Also the compression blocks really "come alive" when grading in post. Moire correction, rolling shutter, etc... It's just not ideal for a motion picture camera.

In reality all things considered equal if you've got a guy who knows both cameras you'll be producing much better material off of a Red. Hence the reason I purchased a Scarlet.

And to that point, here's Scarlet X pushed to ISO 6400 at 4k post processed. Also shown is the original at ISO 800.

Keep in mind this is illuminated by the light given off of a cell phone screen in an extremely dimly lit cafe and shot at f/1.2. The point of focus is his thumb, but if you look on the right there's detail in his shirt. There currently isn't a DSLR on the market that can produce these results.

If you are documentary shooter or an ambient light guy, there's a lot of power to be had with properly post processed RedCode Raw.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

;-) It make me think the old question about :

what is the difference between God and a dop?
God don't think he is a dop...

Hahahahahahahahha!

 

[Patrick Tresch]

One thing to remember is that many cameras achieve their low light performance at the expense of dynamic range and resolution. REDs don't sacrifice either. I've seen low light camera tests comparing M-X to 5D2, and to say that the 5D2 looked ugly with blown highlights and posterized skin-tone is an understatement. The M-X looked just fine - best of the bunch in fact, and this was on a film-out to equalize all the cameras tested.

Graeme

YES! Great great point!

ISO is METADATA! (this also means it keeps your highlights!)

Just genius!

Pat

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Hi Phil, that's cool.

Have to subscribe to your "properly developed" comment.
It's all about knowledge, and the more you push the envelope, the more knowledge is needed to navigate the pitfalls.

What your image have, is actual contrast, even though it is exposed low. As soon as there is actually some contrast in the image, it is solveable... more often than not.
That's where you get the payoff from the precission.

I still think that lights and control of them is kinda what photography is about...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I 100% agree with Gunliek. Too often these discussions revolve around how much can you get away with no lights rather than what the story is about, what the aesthetics of the movie are supposed to be, etc. Shooting in available light is still to a certain extent lighting. You choose locations that provide the lighting that matches your needs. If that is what you are speaking of, then Epic and ecen the 5D work well in those situations. Where both fail in my opinion is showing up to set and hoping the existing light is good enough. That's not filmmaking. That's called getting lucky if it just happens to work. Most of the time though these situations lead to compromises. I'm a big fan of working within your budget. If a scene calls for a big wide night exterior, and there's no way to get the lighting right within that budget, consider shooting the scene different, taking advantage of what you have and what does work for the story. Lighting is one of the most important aspects of filmmaking. Whether it's adding or taking away, the bottom line is it's rare to just show up and start shooting and have it look exactly the way you want it.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

I'll chime in here because my experience is "applicable".

I was literally the first guy to have HDSLR material from the 5D Mark II on screen in theaters. Been using them on features since late 2008.

I've also been working with Red material for a few years. The Red Epic is better in pretty much every possible way you can imagine. Dynamic range and how you process your ISO 6400 material is the key to success.

Once you get a 5D Mark II up to ISO 2500 it's "pain time". ISO 5000 is possible with extreme noise reduction and sharpening techniques. The biggest issue at this point with HDSLR material in general is that it falls apart due to lack of resolution and dynamic range, especially pushed to that level. Also the compression blocks really "come alive" when grading in post. Moire correction, rolling shutter, etc... It's just not ideal for a motion picture camera.

In reality all things considered equal if you've got a guy who knows both cameras you'll be producing much better material off of a Red. Hence the reason I purchased a Scarlet.

And to that point, here's Scarlet X pushed to ISO 6400 at 4k post processed. Also shown is the original at ISO 800.

Keep in mind this is illuminated by the light given off of a cell phone screen in an extremely dimly lit cafe and shot at f/1.2. The point of focus is his thumb, but if you look on the right there's detail in his shirt. There currently isn't a DSLR on the market that can produce these results.

If you are documentary shooter or an ambient light guy, there's a lot of power to be had with properly post processed RedCode Raw.

Dude... THANK YOU for that. I think that about settles it.