EPIC PACKAGE $400 USD / DAY.

[Tim Whitcomb]

Christian,

First, as an economist by training, I am totally loving the dialogue on this thread. I'll share a quick story about our Houston market. There were three "tiers" of Red owners in the city. The "big boys", the "established firms", and the owner-operators. Frequently, prior to Epic/Scarlet, day rates for Red One rentals varied between $400 - $700 for the second two categories. Panavision was in town (one of the "Big Boys") and their package was $1500 per day.

Panavision totally revamped their business model and closed their Houston depot last year. We know plenty of remaining Red owners who purchased Epics (even Stage II), and by the looks of the updates on the forum -- we should see a flood of Scarlets hit the State, and for sure some in Houston.

Not to confuse causation with correlation, but the market has a way of clearing itself based on a wide variety of factors. I just wanted to point out, in a very respectful way, from the standpoint of applied micro-economic theory, your original post is littered with some assumptions that wouldn't get you a C- in Econ 101. I think subsequent posters have reinforced that point as well.

We welcome those day rates and the success of the Houston owners.

So, to cut thru this, well, Im not sure what the point is.- But you welcome a $400/day rate for a single day rental? if yes please ship your camera to me and I will re-rent it for 3 times that in my market - deal? (and I keep the difference) I will guarantee anyone in Houston $1200 a week for a FULL "M" package with media.

 

[Patrick OMara]

"I find the clients that want the cheapest rate are always the hardest."

This is exactly true everywhere.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

The OP likely rents his out at $400/day too:

10 day month @ $1200/day = $12K, divided by 30 days = $400/day.

So to all who say no one can stay in business renting at $400/day, well, apparently people do stay in business. In fact, it's a standard rate for a long-term rental.

Not to mention, it takes just 150 days to pay back an Epic-M at the $400/day rate. The second half of the year, the renter is in the black and gaining. And the Epic-M has a two year warranty! Furthermore, at that rate, he can actually rent the thing out more often, vs. sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

Yes, I think $400/day is low, but let's not pretend the guy is going out of business, or an idiot, or hurting the rest of us. If you do a 10-day month, you're doing the same thing as this renter.

And furthermore, there's only ONE camera available at that rate. Last time I checked, more than one Epic-M is being rented worldwide each day. So the rest of you can continue to charge more, and you'll continue to find people to rent to – all the cheap cameras are rented!

+1

The math on 400 a day for 5 days a week (on varied rentals) is 2000 a week. Roughly 100k a year. That's good money for camera rental. I'd stay with the camera and charge an extra couple hundred for DIT or whatever. 600 bucks a day. That's good money.

Those of you who don't think so are losing perspective. You're providing a camera. You're not making the movie. You're just providing gear. Yes there will be problems on set with peripheral gear. Yes some days will be lost due to Epic not working properly.
So you have a backup scarlet body and cut a few hundred bucks off the rate to keep the producer happy and production flowing.
And yes I have lots of experience and knowledge and customer handholding experience. You just have to have clear understandings with lower priced rentals because you're not boutique.
But to think that you're going to keep high rates with thousands of scarlets on the market isn't sound business practice. Just my opinion. Everyone's got one.
Noone is going to establish a cartel of thousands of owners keeping high prices. There is such a thing as good and affordable at the same time.
This isn't rocket science.
And yes I've made way more on a day rate. Consistently. But then I was dp'ing as well.

 

[David Battistella]

This thread can only digress.

1. One person can not fix pricing in the marketplace.
2. Complaining about someone else's price is a futile exercise.

Yes. We can all have opinions, create spreadsheets with rental cost analysis, offer pricing strategies, but at the end of the day-

Run your business
Serve your clients

You win jobs
You loose jobs

Bitching don't help.

In fact, this thread is a great billboard for producers who are checking out rental rates for RED. They will be seeing this pricing as a big fat market standard. It's best to not advertise that there are lowballers.

David

 

[Jack Cooper]

So, to cut thru this, well, Im not sure what the point is.- But you welcome a $400/day rate for a single day rental? if yes please ship your camera to me and I will re-rent it for 3 times that in my market - deal? (and I keep the difference) I will guarantee anyone in Houston $1200 a week for a FULL "M" package with media.

I'll forward your offer to the Epic Houston owners we do business with...!

 

[Björn Benckert]

I do not know much about rental rates. But to me it's just like any other business, like the drug business for example where the trick of giving away good product for free to new clients has been standard practice for a long time. I will not get into details how we work but our M package paid it self in less than 3 months and there was quite a few "for free days" during that time. According to my calculations those Epic cameras are hot for rent for about 10 more months maybe shorter. So sitting with the camera on the shelf and having a high rental price is probably not the best move. Alexa studio is coming, Monstro/dragon is coming and Canon will for sure sell a few cameras that some clients find easier to deal with due to the file format and good lowlight performance. And also for sure there will be even more small cameras coming like the nikon 1J and such.

And just from considering the amount of epic and scarletes ordered allready we know the market will be more than flooded. And the people that keeps their "all ready paid off" RED ONE MX cameras will rent out those for how little?...

Thats what I think.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

with 400 usd a day, well i do not wish it happens, but what happens when repair costs around 6000 dollars come?
and are all these lowballers livin at their moms place? without the need to make a living? pay bills?
pay office rents and healthcare?

its stupid to calculate that 30 days per month for 400 is the same as 10 days at 1200.
you get 60-80 days a year. everything on top is a bonus.

and you should also calculate to save at least 10k-20k for future upgrades and assecoires at least per cam.

i let dp's test the epic for free, if a job is in sight. if they decide for another system or company, well they have to pay the testing day. thats the deal i do before hand.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

The OP likely rents his out at $400/day too:

10 day month @ $1200/day = $12K, divided by 30 days = $400/day.

So to all who say no one can stay in business renting at $400/day, well, apparently people do stay in business. In fact, it's a standard rate for a long-term rental.

Not to mention, it takes just 150 days to pay back an Epic-M at the $400/day rate. The second half of the year, the renter is in the black and gaining. And the Epic-M has a two year warranty! Furthermore, at that rate, he can actually rent the thing out more often, vs. sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

Yes, I think $400/day is low, but let's not pretend the guy is going out of business, or an idiot, or hurting the rest of us. If you do a 10-day month, you're doing the same thing as this renter.

And furthermore, there's only ONE camera available at that rate. Last time I checked, more than one Epic-M is being rented worldwide each day. So the rest of you can continue to charge more, and you'll continue to find people to rent to – all the cheap cameras are rented!

I think this not quiet the good math... If you do it your way yes, however, it's probably because you would take the camera for a long period like a month , you get a huge discount.;... but if you start renting out at the same price a day, as doing for a month,

then you'll end up charging 10x400$ =4000$ a month. next time , they'll ask it for 4000$ / 30 = 133$ a day...... and so you could continue , because this is where it'll actually lead too,

I've seen in in the editing and music recording business as well.... It didn't even matters anymore which gear you own at a certain point..... even if you work on fisher price ...

 

[axel ebermann]

wake up my friend. they are actually talking to each other this very moment

If this were a chat room for the oil industry, and Exxon, British Petroleum, and Chevron were talking the way you guys talk, there would be outrage in the media, followed by congressional hearings.

 

[George Butterfield]

I know we are in a free economy, I know everyone is free of rent-out their equipment at the rate they please…

I would argue that you don't really know these things. Sounds like you want to change the system for your own advantage. If you believe that free enterprise is the best system for all, you would just shrug off the low rates and say, "That's life in the fast lane". Do you supply a Cinematographer for your higher rate? If so you must sell the idea that the extra cost will show up on the screen, or pay for itself in some other tangible way, a more efficient production perhaps? The RED Company is making Hollywood Quality Moviemaking available to the masses. We will all benefit as stories are produced by people on all sides of the spectrum, not just the Elite. One year from now, we are going to see a deluge of long films shot on the Scarlet and Epic.

 

[Jim McKinney]

The OP likely rents his out at $400/day too:

10 day month @ $1200/day = $12K, divided by 30 days = $400/day.

Yes, I think $400/day is low, but let's not pretend the guy is going out of business, or an idiot, or hurting the rest of us. If you do a 10-day month, you're doing the same thing as this renter.

But that's part of his point, right? One day at $400 is NOT the same as one month at $4000. Not even close. Don't forget the headache factor: 10 cllents vs. one, 10 check-ins and 10 check-outs vs. one, 10 times the paperwork, etc. -- except, oh yeah, the day-by-day model doesn't even guarantee you the rental, whereas the monthly basically does.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I would argue that you don't really know these things.

I would argue that you're living in an inverted philosophical universe. We do know these things. You can rent out your camera for whatever you'd like to. Peanuts. Roasted honey coated peanuts George. Or a plush doll. Or eggs. Or money. What you'd like to charge for renting out your camera, you can. And noone will stop you. Except maybe the wife.

Sounds like you want to change the system for your own advantage. If you believe that free enterprise is the best system for all, you would just shrug off the low rates and say, "That's life in the fast lane".

Totally agree with you.

We will all benefit as stories are produced by people on all sides of the spectrum, not just the Elite. One year from now, we are going to see a deluge of long films shot on the Scarlet and Epic.

One year from now, there will be a whole new pile of really bad films shot at really high resolution. The looks will suck. The acting will suck. The sound will suck. And most importantly, the stories will suck.
Red is selling cameras, not narrative ability.

Having said that, there will also be a few more beautiful pieces of work created. Most likely by the up and coming artists who rent cameras from people like the OP for $600 bucks a day or less because of a belief in helping people's dreams take flight.

 

[Shane Kelly]

One year from now, there will be a whole new pile of really bad films shot at really high resolution. The looks will suck. The acting will suck. The sound will suck. And most importantly, the stories will suck.
Red is selling cameras, not narrative ability.

Having said that, there will also be a few more beautiful pieces of work created. Most likely by the up and coming artists who rent cameras from people like the OP for $600 bucks a day or less because of a belief in helping people's dreams take flight.

Nicely said.