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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Convince me why my EPIC M costs about 5 times as the Scarlet package

I am baffled by a lot of the discussions going on in the various sub-forums. Now that Scarlet is announced all I keep thinking about is saving for just another year to get an Epic. If you have specific work requirements that don't require what the Epic offers, okay, I understand you wanting to go in the opposite direction. But if you're looking to expand your creative expression? Come on! Go to Youtube and check out all the clips of people showing off what they can do with their Epic. Almost every one will include something that Scarlet just can't do like the Epic: slo-mo. The better artists out there don't just slow down time, they use it to evoke our emotions, add poignancy, or hold our jaw dropped for an extra moment. Not to mention having so much more control over depth of field with the Epic. The Scarlet crops; the faster your frame rate the greater the crop. I look at Scarlet as someone's first hit of smack. And Epic as the only answer to satisfy the resulting addiction. If it comes down to dollars and cents or limited work requirements, fine, I can understand not needing/wanting/affording anything more than the Scarlet. But other than that I really can't believe anyone would ask "why would I want an Epic?"
 
Mohamed Younis said:
Speed isnt the only aspect when it comes to comparing cars. I dont think I need to argue my point, saying an S class costs 5 times more than a C class but isnt 5 times faster doesnt make sense. What about luxury? options? stability? size? Cameras are different. You can basically compare RED cameras on resolution and fps/price. Sure a lot of other factors like size, weight, options, are comparable but the defining feautures are resolution and fps. Everyone freaked out when it was announced that scarlet is 4k but no one will freak out if the S class is 5000cc. That's not why people buy the S class.
I'm sorry my english isnt perfect that's why I dont like arguing a lot. I find it hard picking the right words to voice my opinion at 6 am.
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The whole point, which you seem to be completely missing, either deliberately or not, is that the Epic is the S-Class and Scarlet is the S-Class products of the same brand. It's not just about speed, although in the case of the Epic it kinda is, but the point is, you're getting much, much more for the money with the Epic than with the Scarlet. Both are awesome, but not everyone needs the S-Class. If you bought it and you don't need it, I have to question why you'd spend $60,000 on something you don't need or don't see the value of. As for the "everyone freaked out" part - that was a good thing. I know I did, because now my choice of cameras became easier than ever before. Buy the Scarlet, then when I've used it to make enough money, I get the Epic brain and use ALL my existing accessories.
 
Thor Melsted said:
The whole point, which you seem to be completely missing, either deliberately or not, is that the Epic is the S-Class and Scarlet is the S-Class products of the same brand. It's not just about speed, although in the case of the Epic it kinda is, but the point is, you're getting much, much more for the money with the Epic than with the Scarlet. Both are awesome, but not everyone needs the S-Class. If you bought it and you don't need it, I have to question why you'd spend $60,000 on something you don't need or don't see the value of. As for the "everyone freaked out" part - that was a good thing. I know I did, because now my choice of cameras became easier than ever before. Buy the Scarlet, then when I've used it to make enough money, I get the Epic brain and use ALL my existing accessories.
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I no longer want to continue this debate with you because no matter how politely I try to reply it seems like you try to undermine my opinions.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
I no longer want to continue this debate with you because no matter how politely I try to reply it seems like you try to undermine my opinions.
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When there is a disagreement and one side thinks the other side is wrong, saying so can be perceived as undermining.
But hey, if you're not prepared to back up your statements, don't be hurt when someone points out the flaw in them.


Bottom line is this, and with all due respect... If you don't believe the camera you bought is worth what you paid for it, you should probably sell it.

PS. since you brought it up, summarily dismissing an argument as invalid without elaborating - and then an ad hominem response? Looks like we may have different ideas of what is and isn't polite.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
I no longer want to continue this debate with you because no matter how politely I try to reply it seems like you try to undermine my opinions.
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The Epic is 10x faster than a Scarlet.

The Epic shoots motion at a 50% > resolution than Scarlet.

The Epic has less than 1/2 the compression at 4k.

And here is the clencher:

28k + 5k Accessories = 33k
$10k + 5k Accessories = 15k
---------------------------------------

It only costs 2.5x as much!!!

So it only costs 2.5x as much but is 10x faster, has 50% better features and you're whining about the deal you got? Boohoo. Epic is a way better bargain than scarlet. In that respect you're right it is unlike an S-Class. You get WAY MORE compared to the lower featured model for your money.

Epic costs: $33,000 / (5120px*2700px*120fps/3 compression) = .005c per compressed pixel per US Cent
Scarlet costs: $15,000 / (5120px*2700px*12fps/7 compression) .06c per compressed pixel per US Cent

That means the Epic is literally a 1200% better deal than scarlet. I feel terrible for you.
 
Why is everyone crying?

If you are upset that you paid for an Epic M or X for a package that was around 40-60k then go ahead and sell it.

Once you get your money back, go ahead and buy an Alexa and start shooting with it if you aren't happy with Red...

Oh wait, you can't because the Alexa is 60,000 for the body alone.............

Do you people realize that the Epic is single handily the BEST camera on the market, not to mention the BEST camera for the price?

This thread should be closed.... If you are upset with your Epic, just sell it and get something that suits your needs. Im sure there are many many many people who want that camera.
 
If anyone is unhappy with their EPIC, I'll gladly buy you a Scarlet in trade... Long shot, but hey, if Epic is that bad for some of you, I'm here to help.
 
Everyone is really quick to attack. I never said Epic isnt the best camera in the world. I never said I dislike RED. I bought a Scarlet without even waiting to read the specs. I didnt know it was 4k. I really trust RED and i love the community. That being said I was just wondering how they can make a camera which will undoubtely bite into their best camera's market. I'm not going to sell my Epic but I was thinking about it. I was going to use the money to get a third scarlet and a lot of new gear. 60,000$ is a lot of money in Egypt. I'm not crying, I'm not whining, I didnt even think I'd get more than a couple of replies but you're all quick to attack me for just wondering about something.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
That being said I was just wondering how they can make a camera which will undoubtely bite into their best camera's market.
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They're not subscribing to the business model(s) used by "the other guys" in the industry. Looks to me like they made the best possible camera they could offer for the price point they wanted to hold. It is a scaled-down EPIC for a lower price. Really, this seems like it was to be the EPIC-S (formerly Scarlet S35), but became Scarlet-X with the discontinuation of the 2/3" program.

Yes, it will undoubtedly eat into potential EPIC sales and will eat into EPIC rentals in the industry as it will fit the bill for many customers and many jobs. On the other hand, everything is upgradeable -- we can continue to upgrade sensors and abilities within both the EPIC and Scarlet. It will be interesting to see how the cameras will evolve in terms of both hardware and software over the next couple years. Eating into EPIC's territory isn't a primary concern for RED. They're not going to overprice the top end of their offerings or reserve specific functions only for the top tier of their products, just to protect them.

The other guys have fallen into a paradigm of doing just that. They intentionally cripple or restrict their mid-range offerings so that they don't encroach into their high-end territory and then they charge astronomical prices for that high-end. I'm willing to bet that Canon is going to lose a LOT of potential C300 sales to RED. They are indeed going to notice this. On the other hand, they will still sell a lot of C300 cameras. And more than that, they will continue to sell lenses. And RED owners are going to be buying lots of those lenses.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
60,000$ is a lot of money in Egypt.
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Mohamed,

$60 grand is a lot of money in the U.S. too. Consider your fellow working class Egyptians fortunate to have some of the same tools as you have had with the Epic instead of simply illustrating bitterness that the peasants now stand united with some of the same weapons that the elite have. Ever hear about the 99%? If you'd like to sell your high speed Epic, I'm sure you could sell it for top dollar and it will be used in one of Hollywood's many working theatrical releases that require high speed per FPS.
 
Gabriel Winebrenner said:
Mohamed,

$60 grand is a lot of money in the U.S. too. Consider your fellow working class Egyptians fortunate to have some of the same tools as you have had with the Epic instead of simply illustrating bitterness that the peasants now stand united with some of the same weapons that the elite have. Ever hear about the 99%? If you'd like to sell your high speed Epic, I'm sure you could sell it for top dollar and it will be used in one of Hollywood's many working theatrical releases that require high speed per FPS.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
 
Kenneth Williams said:
RED I love you guys but putting out THIS Scarlet will kill my rental business. A lot of us are small time renters who own one camera. It will be RED ONE to EPIC X for me as soon as it gets here. The people who rent from me will be just fine renting the Scarlet instead ofr a lot less money. Music videos and the like... To top things off the new chip is just around the corner. Now before everyone jumps all over me... take a deep breath. There is a lot of truth in what I am saying. This is not a selfish way of lookig at things either.
Click to expand...

rentals are getting better and cheaper. this is a good thing. this is a trend that will only accelerate over time.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
They're not subscribing to the business model(s) used by "the other guys" in the industry. Looks to me like they made the best possible camera they could offer for the price point they wanted to hold. It is a scaled-down EPIC for a lower price. Really, this seems like it was to be the EPIC-S (formerly Scarlet S35), but became Scarlet-X with the discontinuation of the 2/3" program.

Yes, it will undoubtedly eat into potential EPIC sales and will eat into EPIC rentals in the industry as it will fit the bill for many customers and many jobs. On the other hand, everything is upgradeable -- we can continue to upgrade sensors and abilities within both the EPIC and Scarlet. It will be interesting to see how the cameras will evolve in terms of both hardware and software over the next couple years. Eating into EPIC's territory isn't a primary concern for RED. They're not going to overprice the top end of their offerings or reserve specific functions only for the top tier of their products, just to protect them.

The other guys have fallen into a paradigm of doing just that. They intentionally cripple or restrict their mid-range offerings so that they don't encroach into their high-end territory and then they charge astronomical prices for that high-end. I'm willing to bet that Canon is going to lose a LOT of potential C300 sales to RED. They are indeed going to notice this. On the other hand, they will still sell a lot of C300 cameras. And more than that, they will continue to sell lenses. And RED owners are going to be buying lots of those lenses.
Click to expand...
I dont think I'll buy any of their cine lenses. I heard that they'll be very pricey. Are they essentially the same eos lenses with different coatings and mounts?
 
The cine-primes from Canon are $6800 a pop!

Anyway, I think Jeff hit the nail on the head. Red made the best camera they could for $10k. Of course that means that some people that bought the $28k/$43k version are going to feel a bit of a sting as the high end model absolutely does more, but is probably overkill for those who had to stretch to get the funds to purchase the thing. The Scarlet is the perfect camera for people who are serious about shooting quality footage at 24/25fps. If you need to go higher than that, the Epic is what you need.
 
Mohamed Younis said:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Click to expand...

Mohamed Younis said:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
Click to expand...
Maybe I misunderstood your post, but from what I thought you said was basically:

A)You bought an Epic.

B)You then bought a Scarlet, without knowing what the specs were just in your undying love of all RED products (who the hell does this really unless you have so much an abundance of wealth that mistakes such as big purchases are thus a trivial matter...)

C)You are now contemplating selling your Epic since the Scarlet which lacks HS and 5k motion is good enough for you.

D)You would be deciding to buy a third Scarlet although you only have bought one already (without looking at the specs before you bought it....cough), but haven't got the second Scarlet yet but are considering a third (confused...).

And then you complain how 60k is a lot of money in Egypt when, and excuse me if I'm wrong, the US, Europe and many other past industrialized countries are equally as broke and in economic/political turmoil...
 
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