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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Epic skintones.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?58227-Leica-Lens-Resolution-test...
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1304136624.jpg

That's a picture of the readout from an Epic and Alexa shooting with the new Leica lenses, which are the new perfect.

So depending on how you want to look at that (ProRes/ArriRAW) the benefit in actual resolved detail is very significant - between 2 and 2.5 times more detail on the RED in what I believe is only one spatial dimension. Meaning the amount of actual detail present in captured images will be somewhere around 3-5 times. Other tests have born this out.
 
Graeme's MTF resolution charts of Epic and Alexa clearly demonstrate much higher MTF in the 1000-2000 line range from Epic. That that would be very noticeable in a high quality HD/2k resolution image, especially in a large screen venue. More like what you would get from a 2k finish of a 4k film scan.
 
Both the Epic and the Alexa are fantastic cameras. Based on the tests I have seen the Alexa seems to handle detail in low light a little bit better, the Epic has a higher resolution and does a very good job in low light as well. I'll acknowledge that I am a director and not a cinematographer, but my friend (the man who conducted said tests) said that he had the same general thoughts as did the colourist in the room. Based on this I'd say that it really comes down to what you are trying to shoot and what kind of look you want. Both cameras produce beautiful images. It's definitely worth noting that to get the same kind of features on the Alexa that you would get on an Epic out of the box you're looking at just under three times the cost (if you want the hardware that allows for use of ARRI RAW).
 
Nick Wernham said:
Both the Epic and the Alexa are fantastic cameras. Based on the tests I have seen the Alexa seems to handle detail in low light a little bit better, the Epic has a higher resolution and does a very good job in low light as well. I'll acknowledge that I am a director and not a cinematographer, but my friend (the man who conducted said tests) said that he had the same general thoughts as did the colourist in the room. Based on this I'd say that it really comes down to what you are trying to shoot and what kind of look you want. Both cameras produce beautiful images. It's definitely worth noting that to get the same kind of features on the Alexa that you would get on an Epic out of the box you're looking at just under three times the cost (if you want the hardware that allows for use of ARRI RAW).
Click to expand...
Both cameras have their own look and even though you can grade the footage to look close like the other one, it will not look the same. Which camera produces better image is up to you to decide. Everyone has their own taste.

Arriflex/Alexa has more non realistic and "abundant" look (hope that is correct word, used dictionary). Blockbuster look if you can say so. EPIC has more realistic look. Both have their own places and if I had the money I would buy them both. When I started watching Pirates of the Caribbean 4 first thing I noticed was that the movie had different, more "reality" look in it than the first movies, which were shot with Arriflex (Arriflex share the same qualities as Alexa). The 4th one was graded in same way, but they still have different quality on them. Avengers and 30 Minutes or Less trailers shows the Alexa look well too.

I personally like the image of Alexa a little bit more for narrative stuff, but as long as its size and price is 3x the EPIC's, I'm not interested.
 
Cameras look exactly how you expect them to look when you know what camera was used.

Graeme
 
Josh Snyder said:
Arriflex/Alexa has more non realistic and "abundant" look (hope that is correct word, used dictionary). Blockbuster look if you can say so. EPIC has more realistic look.
Click to expand...

No disrespect... as you might be an academy award winning DP or colourist... but with my work with both cameras... I cannot see any difference between the two in 2k.. (well I cant make ARRI 4k because it doesn't shoot that large).

I can put up a graded Alexa shot and grade my RED stuff identical. And vice versa... cant see a scratch of difference.

We had a two camera shoot one day, mixed the two together, could not tell which was which when we graded it all up. Just looked at it again just then.. still no difference.

It amazes me when people say this one looks filmic and the other doesn't.. Same lens. same lights. same actors, same scene, same F stop..

Now the difference between a 4k projected image from RED and a up resolution Alexa image.. now then you can see a difference... one was soft and the other sharp. But in 2k... Ya dreamin..
 
Honestly couldn't tell you.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Which one of these is sharper to you, and which one is Alexa and which one is EPIC?
http://florianstadler.com/askin.jpg
http://florianstadler.com/bskin.jpg

Don't answer if you have seen these before.
Click to expand...

Oh, fun. Haven't seen these before. Same lens? Same rating (800asa)? Camera height is different. Really should give test specs. My guess A is Alexa. B is Epic. Epic will have a slightly larger field of view but that is not why I may my choice. Do you have Tungsten?

They both look good.
 
Lets give more people time to answer. To me it was clear which one was which. Alexa was shot 60fps Prores422 and Epic 120fps 4KHD. It's from two camera shoot. It's not from comparison shoot.

Björn Benckert said:
On My iphone now so its Hard juge but the difference in 5k would be quite obvius.but I guess both those frames about HD size if so then comparison is irrelevant.... kind of like judging them in youtube size...
Click to expand...
It's not irrelevant at all. 1080p is todays standard. When 4K is standard RED and Arri both have released new cameras that produces better images. Lets see then which one looks better at 4K. For now it's more relevent how it looks in 1080p because 1080p/2K is what people will watch them from.

Answer to this: If the audience see movie from 1080p/2K equipment, is it more important how the movie looks in 1080p/2K or is it more important how the movie looks in 4K?

edit: to correct myself from the earlier post, Alexa weights 3x as much, but costs 2x as much (if the EPIC-X brain is still 29,500$. After next januarys price increases [EPIC-X brain seems to be 36,500$ after the end of the year] the price difference will be even smaller).
 
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Josh Snyder said:
Which one of these is sharper to you, and which one is Alexa and which one is EPIC?
http://florianstadler.com/askin.jpg
http://florianstadler.com/bskin.jpg
Click to expand...

REST my case...

Down converting EPIC 5k down to 2k.. I cant tell the difference at all...
Up rezing ALEXA 2k up to 4K.. Yes, i can tell the difference all day every day...

But in the real world... The 2k, HD world... know body is going to know or care.

I just love shooting EPIC so I can rack and blowup images with little to know loss. Skin tones are never an issue as I can make EPIC look like ARRI and ARRI look like EPIC. :)))
 
scale down makes most things look equal...

scale down makes most things look equal...

Mark Toia said:
REST my case...

Down converting EPIC 5k down to 2k.. I cant tell the difference at all...
Up rezing ALEXA 2k up to 4K.. Yes, i can tell the difference all day every day...

But in the real world... The 2k, HD world... know body is going to know or care.

I just love shooting EPIC so I can rack and blowup images with little to know loss. Skin tones are never an issue as I can make EPIC look like ARRI and ARRI look like EPIC. :)))
Click to expand...

Do not rest your case the difference is there when you pull keys and such. But I agree downress does magic. check this one, 5D next to alexa downscaled to 720x576 nobody entering the flame suite could tell the difference, the alexa with ultra primes and the 5D with canon ESO lenses... When graded and downscaled with interpolation the pretty much looks the same... the grade is a bit different because I did not bother to do all the clients little tweaks to the 5D stock so I just match graded it quicky. So differences in highlights and such is just me... but the overall quality of the pal stuff to the right is same same no difference....

her is a link if the attachement does not show: http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/film/big_difference_alexa_5D.jpg
 

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  • big_difference_alexa_5D.jpg
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A is EPIC, B is Alexa. Everyone who's going to buy an EPIC should see the difference. In the earlier thread half of the people got it wrong, this time all that dared to guess got it wrong. To me the difference is clear when you just look the overall colors on the skin and people, the hair of the guy etc. Alexa is also cleaner on the noise/grain side. Alexa simply looks more like a traditional film. EPIC looks more realistic (I won't say videoish). But that doesn't mean that Alexa looks better for all purposes, no. Both have their places.

Björn Benckert said:
Do not rest your case the difference is there when you pull keys and such. But I agree downress does magic. check this one, 5D next to alexa downscaled to 720x576 nobody entering the flame suite could tell the difference, the alexa with ultra primes and the 5D with canon ESO lenses... When graded and downscaled with interpolation the pretty much looks the same... the grade is a bit different because I did not bother to do all the clients little tweaks to the 5D stock so I just match graded it quicky. So differences in highlights and such is just me... but the overall quality of the pal stuff to the right is same same no difference....

her is a link if the attachement does not show: http://www.syndicate.se/Files/~usr/film/big_difference_alexa_5D.jpg
Click to expand...

You can see the difference between RED or Alexa and 5D footage from 720x easily, depending how good the grader is. You could downscale youtube video on this to half and still see it's shot with Alexa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddw6fW5oCU0

Though if you choose your shots well (shots that would look the same with any digital camera) it will be pretty impossible to see the difference.

oh and you didn't answer to my question:

Answer to this: If the audience see movie from 1080p/2K equipment, is it more important how the movie looks in 1080p/2K or is it more important how the movie looks in 4K?
Click to expand...
 
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original post and poster of this comparison...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...-filmic-quot-color/page13&highlight=skintones

All these conclusions are subjective based on the material provided, and prove nothing. As soon as you ask people to guess on a site dedicated to one camera while showing a bias for one it's going to cause problems and thus means little to nothing.

Both are great camera's and can be made to look nearly similar that was the intent of the post... not to show weaknesses in one or the other.

Test for yourself, trust no one!

...the truth is out there!
 
Stephen Matthews said:
original post and poster of this comparison...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...-filmic-quot-color/page13&highlight=skintones

All these conclusions are subjective based on the material provided, and prove nothing. As soon as you ask people to guess on a site dedicated to one camera while showing a bias for one it's going to cause problems and thus means little to nothing.

Both are great camera's and can be made to look nearly similar that was the intent of the post... not to show weaknesses in one or the other.

But if you would like to stay under your bridge and pull in passer by's(crap that is me...run!), by all means continue.

Test for yourself, trust no one!

...the truth is out there!
Click to expand...
1. This whole thread was made with bias and in effort to downplay Alexa, you seem to have nothing against that.

2. With your logic, any comparison against Alexa and in Favor of EPIC in this site means little to nothing. That makes also all Recon threads with similar subject meaningless (in your opinion).

3. I've said from the get go that I prefer the image of Alexa a bit more, but pretty much everything else in EPIC is better. Am I only not biased after I say that everything in EPIC is better? Being honest and realistic doesn't mean you are biased.

4. Those pictures are not mine, they are very relevant to this discussion and means more than any other comparison posted in this thread.

5. Like I've said, both cameras are great and both have their place.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Which one of these is sharper to you, and which one is Alexa and which one is EPIC?
http://florianstadler.com/askin.jpg
http://florianstadler.com/bskin.jpg

Don't answer if you have seen these before.
Click to expand...

There is a color difference; the Epic has more of a yellow cast and is slightly darker. But these can be easily corrected. Actually, messing around with both images brought into Media Composer, it's pretty simple to make the Epic essentially match the Alexa or even surpass it in terms of rich skin tones.
 
Have you shot and gone through post with both on the same shot and compared them yourself in a proper environment? just a question, or are you just going off things others have posted?

And yes any person asking "which is which" on compressed shots(made to look the exact same) posted on a forum has already skewed the results in my opinion(just my opinion not law or fact... or anything really)... when people think they are being tricked they will look to far into things, or they will see fingerprints of one camera where there is none. Not a scientific or definitive test by any means(or original), though you never said it was...

I have no issue with Alexa, what I have issue with is people pushing their own opinions and agendas on others at the sacrifice of the truth!... Alexa's great just far beyond my price range... oh and don't put words in other peoples mouths not a very nice thing to do! (I may have done the same and for that I apologize)

sorry bias should have been preference...

have fun with your... posts!... perhaps you would like some Tea with your ROLL... j/k but it does seem like that is what you have been doing as of late.... perhaps that is why I'm so... talkative with you...

6,7,8...Peace!
 
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