Cinema 5d guesses interchangeable

[Tobias Ashenheim]

People in the 6k market want the easy way. Does a wedding guy want to transcode 10 hours of footage?
The 5D succeeded because it was easy to get a QT file into an editing application. That's why they don't shoot wedding on film.

But they still did need to transcode H.264 files into pro res or similar unless using Premiere, so the workflow of 5D was a step backwards in convenience, yet its sold like crazy to this market.. So I think RED has a chance of outselling Canon with scarlet...

 

[David Rasberry]

If the rumors are true, the new Canon will have the very good Mpeg2 50Mbs 4:2:2 MXF codec of the XF305, which means it will record to 1080P. Scaled from a true 4K sensor or QHD?

 

[Mike Garrick]

My 1st post here, jeeze I feel like a virgin again. Anyway I use a lot of different camera systems in my work (hired) & have been in the production game for a little while

The upcoming November announcement isn’t just on cinema 5D it’s all over the web, naturally there’s lots of talk about what one of the benchmarks in modern camera development is planning .

And that’s what really excites me, not just the just proposed specs (lol) but the fact that in the last 3 years or so there has been more professional camera development than in the previous 20 & Red instigated that revolution . I remember shooting with camera’s that needed a mortgage to own & with CCD chips the size of my little fingernail & lens options that where stunted. It was a cosy relationship then between the manufacturers, Arri etc. with their $500,000 film cameras & Sony with high end broadcast camera’s, everyone staking their share of the market & charging exorbitant prices. Ownership of these camera systems was for the lucky few or the brave with long lease repayment schedules . Then along came the Red One & the revolution started. So here we are in the 2nd decade of the 21st century awaiting the release of a new generation of digital camera with specs & price point that would have been unheard of a few years ago . So it’s only natural that everyone is speculating on just what the future in camera form holds from the company that started this revolution.

 

[Duane Wik]

I wish I could "Like" your post Mike. ^

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Mike:

Like you, my first post, and I agree 100%.

I'm in the minority here because I currently shoot with a Nikon D7K, mostly weddings and documentary work. I've been saving my $ and browsing forums "quietly", and I got to tell you, I just can't wait to see what Nov 3rd brings!
I'm hoping to have saved enough for a working Scarlett kit.

Question:
I understand the speculative game of sensor size, but assuming on Nov 3rd it is indeed 2/3s, can someone explain to me what the crop factor would be if I wanted to use my ZEISS and NIKON glass?

Thanks!

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Lots of that here already, just search.

 

[Steve Wake]

Marcos: Nice to see another D7K shooter. Not the only thing I use, but pretty versatile. The Scarlet 2/3 sensor is actually 10.1mm x 5.35mm (3,072 x 1,620 pixels). So you can see the aspect ratio is not the 35mm still standard 3:2. Horizontal crop factor is about 3.5, vertical over 4, and diagonal about 3.8.

So if you plan to use F-mount glass you won't be able to shoot wide. The other factor is resolution on the small 2/3 sensor. The best Nikon and Zeiss glass tests to about 4,000 line widths per picture height (on the D3x) in the center on the Photozone site. This translates to about 83 line pairs/mm. Jarred has reported the Red miniprimes and the Fixed Zoom resolve at least 100 lp/mm in the center. Now it's possible the Photozone tests underestimate max possible resolution because the lenses are capable of outresolving the sensor. In any case, only the best would be likely to give satisfactory results. Fortunately you'd be using the center sweet spot of any lens.

 

[Steve Wake]

As far as the interchangeable, I think Jarred's oft-quoted comment about mounts on Scarlet and Epic mean the Interchangeable is definitely live and well. No doubt it's still on the roadmap. Now if he really meant that Epic and Scarlet use the exact same lens plate/adapters (and not simply that the same PL, Nikon, Canon mounts would be available for Scarlet) , that would be BIG news. It would mean a complete redesign of Scarlet to a wider body with the same backfocal distance as EPIC - in other words, a S35 sensor. Not likely, but I know a lot of people here are hoping for exactly that. Now if the Scarlet box was checked for the Red PL mount, I'd take that as confirmation. But it isn't checked.

I'm actually hoping for one Scarlet. An interchangeable that also has the Fixed Zoom available as a complete module that would attach with four screws like a lens mount. Bigger sensor and or more pixels might be nice (as long as DR and low-light sensitivity remain the same) but would be less important to me. A bigger sensor that was windowed down to 2.5 K (1080 after debayer) for the Fixed and was 4K otherwise (close to 4/3 size) would make (almost) everyone even happier than they are already - no?

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Marcos: Nice to see another D7K shooter. Not the only thing I use, but pretty versatile. The Scarlet 2/3 sensor is actually 10.1mm x 5.35mm (3,072 x 1,620 pixels). So you can see the aspect ratio is not the 35mm still standard 3:2. Horizontal crop factor is about 3.5, vertical over 4, and diagonal about 3.8.

So if you plan to use F-mount glass you won't be able to shoot wide. The other factor is resolution on the small 2/3 sensor. The best Nikon and Zeiss glass tests to about 4,000 line widths per picture height (on the D3x) in the center on the Photozone site. This translates to about 83 line pairs/mm. Jarred has reported the Red miniprimes and the Fixed Zoom resolve at least 100 lp/mm in the center. Now it's possible the Photozone tests underestimate max possible resolution because the lenses are capable of outresolving the sensor. In any case, only the best would be likely to give satisfactory results. Fortunately you'd be using the center sweet spot of any lens.

Steve:

Thanks for your informative post. I guess that much crop would kill the versatility of my 24-70mm lens as well as other lenses I have. It would be interesting to see what Red has in store for us this Nov 3rd.

Marcos

 

[Jaime Vallés]

A few of us have campaigned for a 4k m4/3 sized sensor interchangeable Scarlet and the hints have me imagining the possibilities.
If Red produced a 20mm x10mm .0047 pixel pitch sensor in their signature 2:1 format, it would be 4/3 size at 4k, S16mm size at 3k and 2/3" size at 2k. Not direct competition with Epic or even Epic S. But a camera like that could cover a lot of market ground with a brain in the $5k-7k price range and accept just about every common lens type and format out there. It would appeal more to the shallow DOF junkies and broaden Scarlet's market appeal considerably.
THAT would be my ideal Scarlet.

Damn, a Micro 4/3 sensor at 4K resolution in the Scarlet would be a dream come true!

 

[Graeme Hay]

Damn, a Micro 4/3 sensor at 4K resolution in the Scarlet would be a dream come true!

I agree, although 2/3rds for me is fine I can see an advantage of going to 4/3 (what I'm currently using). Larger sensors you quickly lose that "Run&Gun" framework but gain low light abilities and DOF. So its a trade off.

Unless Canon pulls a Rabbit out of its hat I suspect we will see a Full Frame 5D mark III that is still 1080p (Raw) or 2K/3K Codex. And I don't think they will pull 120fps - if they did it would be burst. Remember part of the issue they will have is SD/CF card write-speeds which RED has indicated time and time again are constantly not up to spec for continuous application (thats why they have their own media and its so expensive).

 

[Lee Brandt]

I'm starting a campaing against the "Run&Gun" small sensor cameras. Well, if Scarlet only has a small sensor option then I'll definitely get it, but I hope they go big.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

I'm starting a campaing against the "Run&Gun" small sensor cameras. Well, if Scarlet only has a small sensor option then I'll definitely get it, but I hope they go big.

Why start a campaign against it? The camera is for sale in 1 month, so the Scarlet - what ever it is - will be well and truly "finished" by now, with only the slightest icing to be applied to the cake.

 

[Lee Brandt]

Why start a campaign against it? The camera is for sale in 1 month, so the Scarlet - what ever it is - will be well and truly "finished" by now, with only the slightest icing to be applied to the cake.

I know. I'm only being half serious. Still, I hope it's a larger sensor than 2/3

 

[Malvin Ng]

I agree, although 2/3rds for me is fine I can see an advantage of going to 4/3 (what I'm currently using). Larger sensors you quickly lose that "Run&Gun" framework but gain low light abilities and DOF. So its a trade off.

Unless Canon pulls a Rabbit out of its hat I suspect we will see a Full Frame 5D mark III that is still 1080p (Raw) or 2K/3K Codex. And I don't think they will pull 120fps - if they did it would be burst. Remember part of the issue they will have is SD/CF card write-speeds which RED has indicated time and time again are constantly not up to spec for continuous application (thats why they have their own media and its so expensive).

Agreed Scarlet with a 4/3 sensor would be awesome to have

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

The newer crowd is huge on the Big Sensor and pushing for it. The crowd that have been here longer are perfectly fine with what it was, but speculate possible changes...either way it will be an amazing camera.

 

[Darius Lyles]

I plan to use the Scarlet on a doc, so I guess if its 2/3rds that would be better for that purpose. However I am hoping it comes with a larger sensor and 4K if not I will gladly take 2/3 3K, btw there have been plenty of docs shot on larger format cameras. I think people forget that everything used to be recorded on film so while it is not ideal to shoot on a larger sensor it is not impossible to run n gun on S35 or 4/3's.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

yes but just as you can shoot a Hollywood big budget feature on s16mm, most would prefer not too, you can shoot run n gun with s35 but it would be better to use 2/3" or 16m. the same goes for indi productions in my mind, you could use 35mm but 16mm or 2/3" would be easier to manage than s35mm in many regards.

The reality is a huge part of the shortcoming of the DSLR's for the indi run and gun shooter is most amateurs and beginners can't keep things in focus constantly or are searching for focus. So unless you are working with pro's who hit their mark's every time then it will be hard to keep them in focus, and dealing with animals... and auto focus is not something to rely on with such a shallow depth of field.

to be honest two camera's would be ideal, if anything the release of the scarlet and an update and shipping date of the Epic-s would be nice. Remember it was stated that scarlet was smaller sensor's and epic was for the larger sensors (I believe). Thing is if you can afford epic-s most will buy it, if not pick up a scarlet 2/3" and be happy with it and make the most of it. the scarlet will be one of the most versatile cameras in this line, the epic-x is as well versatile more so for the higher end. While the Epic-s is a sort of middle ground camera that fills the gap between the low and high end. Now this is all speculation I just think people need to think about the realities of actually shooting with these camera's.

s16mm, 16mm, 8mm, s35mm, ff35mm, 65mm, 4/3", 2/3".... should all be considered as different paint brushes for the artist to select from, not just sensor crop modes that's not the same, but separate systems like in the DSMC line up to choose from for the appropriate setting. There is no need for us to obsolete these sensor sizes, they are very useful in certain situations. Just because you can't afford the paint brush you feel you need doesn't mean the company should scrap their lower line cameras slap in a 35mm sensor and reduce specs accordingly, some might I just don't think red will. Then again who knows, all I know is for the one man band or small shoots a 2/3" sensor will be far more useful than a lot of people seem to realize.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I plan to use the Scarlet on a doc, so I guess if its 2/3rds that would be better for that purpose. However I am hoping it comes with a larger sensor and 4K if not I will gladly take 2/3 3K, btw there have been plenty of docs shot on larger format cameras. I think people forget that everything used to be recorded on film so while it is not ideal to shoot on a larger sensor it is not impossible to run n gun on S35 or 4/3's.

Nothing is impossible... some things are just less possible than others. :banghead:

 

[Lliam Worthington]

yes but just as you can shoot a Hollywood big budget feature on s16mm, most would prefer not too, you can shoot run n gun with s35 but it would be better to use 2/3" or 16m. the same goes for indi productions in my mind, you could use 35mm but 16mm or 2/3" would be easier to manage than s35mm in many regards.

The reality is a huge part of the shortcoming of the DSLR's for the indi run and gun shooter is most amateurs and beginners can't keep things in focus constantly or are searching for focus. So unless you are working with pro's who hit their mark's every time then it will be hard to keep them in focus, and dealing with animals... and auto focus is not something to rely on with such a shallow depth of field.

to be honest two camera's would be ideal, if anything the release of the scarlet and an update and shipping date of the Epic-s would be nice. Remember it was stated that scarlet was smaller sensor's and epic was for the larger sensors (I believe). Thing is if you can afford epic-s most will buy it, if not pick up a scarlet 2/3" and be happy with it and make the most of it. the scarlet will be one of the most versatile cameras in this line, the epic-x is as well versatile more so for the higher end. While the Epic-s is a sort of middle ground camera that fills the gap between the low and high end. Now this is all speculation I just think people need to think about the realities of actually shooting with these camera's.

s16mm, 16mm, 8mm, s35mm, ff35mm, 65mm, 4/3", 2/3".... should all be considered as different paint brushes for the artist to select from, not just sensor crop modes that's not the same, but separate systems like in the DSMC line up to choose from for the appropriate setting. There is no need for us to obsolete these sensor sizes, they are very useful in certain situations. Just because you can't afford the paint brush you feel you need doesn't mean the company should scrap their lower line cameras slap in a 35mm sensor and reduce specs accordingly, some might I just don't think red will. Then again who knows, all I know is for the one man band or small shoots a 2/3" sensor will be far more useful than a lot of people seem to realize.

Love your posts Stephen.
HATED the barrage of stupid posts I'd read on other forums, about what a joke without a larger sensor Scarlet would be.
With my first small Indie feature coming up, your posts make me go all 2/3rd's warm and gooey inside.
:blush2: