STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

[Jack Cooper]

People who sold their cameras, or no longer have any control of 'their' camera, having received 99.9% of the sale price knew full well they were taking the piss, but took the risk anyway. I have mentioned in severalf threads that it breached the spirit of the agreement, as usual I was laughed at by people who knew better. I really respect Jim for taking this line.

Stephen, just to offer another point of view...

If we look to the automotive industry (and others) as a comparative example, your statement is not correct. There are many industry "standard" agreements where leasing companies contractually retain ownership (as in automotive title to a vehicle) and offer $1 buyout options (usually referred to as "residual value" in the lease).

Regardless of the amount of the "sales price" received, title transfers when buyer and seller contractually agree it transfers.

 

[Jack Cooper]

I'm failing to see how anything positive can come from this thread... for Red or it's customers.

I'd much rather be excited that X is shipping, rather than feel confused by this needless drama.

Jason...We concur 1000%...what a wasted morning.

As our late colleague Milton Friedman use to say..."regulation creates false economies"...

 

[Karl H]

That said, I am really struggling to see the issue here Jarred/Jim... so its cool for me to have bought a camera BEFORE THE OCT CUTOFF (and for Donatello to sell me his)
because I had it legally tranfferred with RED? but after the cut off its not cool? HUH????


I am seriously struggling to understand how this would offend you...

The difference, I think is clear. Your camera was bought along with the rights to stage 2. That's very different to someone selling their camera as 'executed' and trying to keep the rights for stage-2 themselves to make a profit. Red see that as opportunistic, and abusing their generosity.

You may say that's just good business, but we all had to make that decision and if we based it purely on 'business' there would have been a ton more people in stage-2, maybe none in stage -3 at all because most would have sold their cams for $15,000 at the time and then got a further $8000 off (or whatever it was), and kept their place in line too. That would be a better deal than stage-3 IF you were allowed to sell your camera. So why did we choose stage-3 if 2 was a more profitable option? Simply because Red stated that choosing stage-2 and then selling your red one was not in spirit of the program. So we didn't.

I am serial 394, I'd have had a great spot in line if I had chosen stage-2 and sold my camera, and I'd have less to pay for the upgrade too. Maybe that's bad business or maybe its not biting the mouth that feeds you, but I understand Red not wanting other people to queue jump for simply being shrewd businessmen.

As far as Ketch goes, people may like him but he isn't a spokesman for Red, and Red's official line on this - many times - was you cannot sell your Red One before you've received your Epic.

Why didn't Red jump on that thread? Well to be fair Jim did post that he wasn't happy with the practice of leasing in the For Sale forum, and people continued to do it.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I have always enjoyed reading and participating on these forums. This is one of the most unfortunate threads I have ever read here.

 

[Frank Cueto]

I don't have a horse in this race, but it sure sounds sour...

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Red meant to be generous all along, but again, depending on what someone sold their executed Red One body for in Stage 2 ... just do the math: They could literally be upgrading to a $40,000 Epic kit for the sale price of their Red One body + price of a Canon 5D. Or because of the "premium," maybe no extra money beyond the sale price of their Red One.

And we're talking 4 YEARS LATER! That's just a bit on the ridiculous side, no?

There's clearly a value imbalance there, and the cost has to get eaten somewhere -- who do you think eats it in this scenario?

And yes, Stage 2 reservation holds left their $5k reservation deposits in escrow and contended with delays, but I think we'd all agree that Red lost far more as problems surfaced (some, like the Tsunami, that were not even their fault) and still they REFUSED to go back on their promise, change the deal and raise prices -- like most businesses would or even "should" do.

I just hope it can be worked out. Because there are some FANTASTIC Red-vocates like Ketch who would give the shirt off their back for fellow Redusers, and don't deserve ridicule, even if he did help set up some of these deals. Ketch is the one who brought me into this community, he ALWAYS means well and loves Red more than anything.

Again, I hope there can be a peaceful resolution and this doesn't overshadow all the good news.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

I think every one should calm down and wait and see exactly what Jim really means...I honestly think he knows what he is doing, and we should just give him time and he will let us know sooner or later....

 

[Tim Morten]

Let's not jump the gun - it's not clear exactly what Red is planning here. Like I said earlier, this is dangerous territory, but I'm hoping Red has something in mind that we all feel is fair at the end of the day.

Clearly this has the potential to be a polarizing issue, and both sides of the debate have made valid points. The last thing in the world that I'd like to see is to have people like Mark, Tim W. (good on you for speaking up), Ketch, etc. come out of this with less motivation to be active members in this community.

Let's not turn on ourselves, and let's hold out some hope that Red will find a way to navigate this fairly.

 

[Jack Cooper]

This is really simple guys.

The Stage program was a program created to take care of our family... you guys are not just customers to us.. we really look at you as our brothers and sisters.

It was ( at least we think ) an incredible gesture to show how much we value that relationship.

To find people trying to go around the system by doing sketchy lease to own and $1 sales to get around the rather simple terms is just plain wrong. It not only breaks our obligation to provide whatever stage you signed up for.. but it also breaks our hearts. It's really that personal.

We have watched this go on for awhile.. Jim has posted that it upset him.. but people continue to do it.

For all of you guys here that have posted that you have kept your camera and have stated various states of affection for your R1... We will never forget. We love you guys. For those of you like Andrew that have kept your camera and plan to sell it afterwards for various reasons... you are good in our books. But those of you that have sold off your camera and somehow think that a loophole makes everything o.k... Re-read Jim's signature.

Jarred.

What exactly is Jim upset with....? Can we get on with the X launch already....? I'd like to see more X delivery pictures...

 

[Stephen Williams]

This is not lease financing as for a car at all.

How many car leases do you pay the full cost price less 1USD up front, Zero monthly payments, no fixed end date & a 1USD buy out.

If something in life seems too good to be true, it probably is.

I wonder how people are accounting for this transaction, I suspect the IRS would have something to say as well.

Stephen, just to offer another point of view...

If we look to the automotive industry (and others) as a comparative example, your statement is not correct. There are many industry "standard" agreements where leasing companies contractually retain ownership (as in automotive title to a vehicle) and offer $1 buyout options (usually referred to as "residual value" in the lease).

Regardless of the amount of the "sales price" received, title transfers when buyer and seller contractually agree it transfers.

 

[Will Wernick]

After reading what people signed it seems pretty obvious that cameras couldn't be sold before delivery of epic x. Not sure what all the back and forth is going to accomplish. Has anyone ever seen an offer this generous from any other company? No need to question their reasoning, just follow the rules and come out way ahead.

 

[Peter Plevritis]

There is also a clear business reason for Red wanting it this way. Since the Stage deal started, if a potential new Red customer wanted a MX Red, Red would want the sale. People who where already getting an amazing deal on the Stages then also could get a premium for their hot new upgraded MX (and for a while rare) camera. They could sell it cheaper than Red does and Red gets hit twice for this deal. Give a generous upgrade path and then be undercut.

The Stage deals are very generous and supportive of the existing customer.

The Red agreement seems pretty clear.

It's horrible if anyone is in the situation.

 

[Jack Cooper]

This is not lease financing as for a car at all.

How many car leases do you pay the full cost price less 1USD up front, Zero monthly payments, no fixed end date & a 1USD buy out.

If something in life seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Stephen...Your reply obviously misses the point about contractual agreements between two parties. Like Mark posted earlier in this thread, any "ex-post" asset management by Red camera owners is between them.

To that point, there are ALOT of folks that have $1 buys on Red Ones. Courts will often look to commercial "behavior" to ascertain the "intent" of the contract when ambiguity in the specific language arises.

Jim's other problem will be that there is over 12 months of reduser history, communication, and open public knowledge about these lease deals. God forbid this ends up being a class action case, you can bet that will be part of the evidence pack brought on by the plaintiffs attorneys.

As an observation about this morning's developments, this is all wasted airtime anyway. I personally predict those deals will be "restrung" to accommodate any "prove out" process Jim may have. Water seeks its own level.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Jack.

I am glad I never have done a deal of trust with you....

LOL

What so hard to understand with the word "keep"
Is it "Kept" if it is not with you?
Then how?

That's kinda nitbarking up some weird tree...

 

[RivaiC]

I thought its pretty clear all the time. Stage 2...keep your RED ONE, i dont think they have use other word than that since the beginning. And you signed that form as agreement.

Camera is still safe with us anyway.

Let's pour some cool water on the head guys...its not good for your health to speculate wild like this

Rivai

 

[Rick Darge]

Wrong, sir! Wrong! Under section 37B of the contract signed by him, it states quite clearly that all offers shall become null and void if - and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy:
I, the undersigned, shall forfeit all rights, privileges, and licenses herein and herein contained, et cetera, et cetera... Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera... Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal! You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!

 

[Paul S.]

Wow, I was on the verge of going for a lease-to-own type of thing, but in the end decided against it: partly because it seemed a bit shady and partly because I decided I wanted to finally become a RED customer (rather than always a customer of a rental house or now of someone offloading an R1).
Feels like I dodged a bullet. But if there is some for of retribution on the horizon, I hope it isn't going to hit the people who bought into these offers.

 

[Tim Morten]

To be fair, I think Jack's point is that Red said you can't transfer ownership. Folks who entered into lease agreements obeyed the letter of that law.

Red never said: "To qualify for stage 2, you can't rent your Epic". Long-term rentals happen all the time.

Perhaps Red (and others) feel that a rental with the right to buy should have been disallowed, but that wasn't clear at the outset, and Jim's opinion of those kinds of deals was only published at a later date, in a forum that not everyone read.

There's a lot of grey here - I understand both sides' perspectives. I just hope this doesn't turn into some kind of pogrom that undermines the community that's been built. I want to believe that Jim and Jarred will figure out a way to handle this fairly.

 

[Stephen Williams]

I suspect when Uncle Sam starts looking at the tax fraud side of this lease, it will be game over for many.

Stephen...Your reply obviously misses the point about contractual agreements between two parties. Like Mark posted earlier in this thread, any "ex-post" asset management by Red camera owners is between them.

To that point, there are ALOT of folks that have $1 buys on Red Ones. Courts will often look to commercial "behavior" to ascertain the "intent" of the contract when ambiguity in the specific language arises.

Jim's other problem will be that there is over 12 months of reduser history, communication, and open public knowledge about these lease deals. God forbid this ends up being a class action case, you can bet that will be part of the evidence pack brought on by the plaintiffs attorneys.

As an observation about this morning's developments, this is all wasted airtime anyway. I personally predict those deals will be "restrung" to accommodate any "prove out" process Jim may have. Water seeks its own level.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

@ Tim

Agreed on all points

@ Jack

that's the kind of reasoning that may make this whole thing turn badder than it need.
I have a hard time understanding how you cannot see that going the legaleeze route is exactly what will NOT resolve this for a whole lot of folks who might find a diplomatic solution...

Actually, I think one of the last things i'd have wanted, was to be on the oposite side of Jim jannard in a court-case where my case was at best shady...

Better then to try to iron out a plan-b or accept fault...

And Ketch does not have any of the RED insignia.
He is a popular person many places, but that does not make him a RED rep, as little as I am...

He has access to more toys, though
Good on him!

Anyhow

NOW I am out of this...

good luck to all!