Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

When it's announced...

Jeffrey Loewe said:
Awesome! So picking up a few old bolex lenses is a good choice to get some additional lenses if needed. Assuming they're in good shape of course. You just need to make sure they're non reflex lenses right?
Click to expand...

Right, non-RX lenses.
 
Nuka Wølk said:
What's your argument this time? That RED needs to get SCARLET out before they lose the all important crash-cam segment market share?? :D

And to your "Captain America"-argument. As it happens, the cinematographer actually already said that he'd have chosen a RED camera(4K) over the Genesis(1080p) for Captain America. Why he didn't is beyond me. Also, if SCARLET was available (probably mostly the interchangeable), then they'd most likely go with that instead of the 5D - as crash-cam costs on such a huge production really isn't a concern - good results are far more important. They wanted the small form factor - they chose the 5D, and I completely understand why.

...and consider this for a moment. What about the huge number of DSLR, HD-camera owners who will sell their cameras to get the SCARLET? SCARLET will most likely, for lot of professionals and people who want to work with pro cameras - be the better and superior choice (naturally!).

And to Tom. Regardless if SCARLET is a prototype camera - it IS a raw digital motion picture camera. If there were only one SCARLET, it would still be a raw digital motion picture camera. ;)
Click to expand...



If Red will replace the 5d mark II on major motion pictures, that means Canon is competition, pure and simple. You don't replace a product you're not in competition with. I think it's specious to state that the two companies dont' compete because Red is a pro camera nd the DSLR is not. Obviously major motion pictures that use DSLRs in the production don't care what's "pro" and what isn't.

They use the best camera for the job, and right now sometimes that's a DSLR. If Scarlet will replace those DSLRs on the set, then that's called competition.

If the price point is such that someone considering a 5d Mark III will feel like spending more money and getting a Scarlet instead, then that's competition.

It's nothing to get upset about. Products that perform the same job compete in the market place.
 
For some specialty shot situations a DSLR can serve well. But for the range of bread and butter solo doc work that I have usually done where one needs a practical general purpose motion camera that can efficiently cover just about any situation right out of the bag, including continuous recording for long periods of time, DSLR's aren't worth considering at all and 35mm formats are not the preferred choice. The 2/3"-16mm sized format really is the sweet spot for this kind of work for both practicality and creative control.
 
Eric Rodemann said:
If Red will replace the 5d mark II on major motion pictures, that means Canon is competition, pure and simple. You don't replace a product you're not in competition with. I think it's specious to state that the two companies dont' compete because Red is a pro camera nd the DSLR is not. Obviously major motion pictures that use DSLRs in the production don't care what's "pro" and what isn't.

They use the best camera for the job, and right now sometimes that's a DSLR. If Scarlet will replace those DSLRs on the set, then that's called competition.

If the price point is such that someone considering a 5d Mark III will feel like spending more money and getting a Scarlet instead, then that's competition.

It's nothing to get upset about. Products that perform the same job compete in the market place.
Click to expand...

There's so much to say on this, but the gist is: you're absolutely right. They ARE in competition. I think we'd all do best not to kid ourselves and think that they aren't.

The high-end of the industry - the Epics, the Master Primes, etc - will remain great for a while. On the entry-level, the sands shift a lot faster. Most of the DSLR debate you hear about is a result of this. Because things change so quickly, there is added urgency to make not only the decision on equipment that is correct now, but will remain good for some time to come.

And it's important to remember that this competition isn't about the specs of the cameras. The specs actually have very little to do with it. Increased capability in a camera is great, but if a production isn't planning on using those capabilities, then they absolutely will do a cost/benefit analysis and base their camera decision accordingly.
 
Eric Rodemann said:
If Red will replace the 5d mark II on major motion pictures, that means Canon is competition, pure and simple. You don't replace a product you're not in competition with. I think it's specious to state that the two companies dont' compete because Red is a pro camera nd the DSLR is not. Obviously major motion pictures that use DSLRs in the production don't care what's "pro" and what isn't.

They use the best camera for the job, and right now sometimes that's a DSLR. If Scarlet will replace those DSLRs on the set, then that's called competition.

If the price point is such that someone considering a 5d Mark III will feel like spending more money and getting a Scarlet instead, then that's competition.

It's nothing to get upset about. Products that perform the same job compete in the market place.
Click to expand...

Haha, who's getting upset? :D

Well, your argument is flawed. They are not competing, simply because SCARLET isn't out yet - nor is the 5D mk III. Second, I think your example is a desperate one to get your point across...but whatever (I suspect RED to think the same).

And, your still seem to be pointing out that major motion pictures utilize 5D's, as if I disagree with you :D But I think you give them far too much credit though.

It's funny that you say:

Eric Rodemann said:
Products that perform the same job compete in the market place.
Click to expand...

Well, SCARLET performs like a alround pro camera motion picture camera - 5D doesn't :D But hey, I wont stop anyone wanting to make a complete major motion picture with a 5D. That would just be interesting and cool I think :)

Btw. I'm actually convinced that major motion pictures care what's pro or not - otherwise, they would have shot films like Captain America entirely on a 5D...thank God they knew better and didn't!! :D
 
Nathaniel Haban said:
There's so much to say on this, but the gist is: you're absolutely right. They ARE in competition. I think we'd all do best not to kid ourselves and think that they aren't.

The high-end of the industry - the Epics, the Master Primes, etc - will remain great for a while. On the entry-level, the sands shift a lot faster. Most of the DSLR debate you hear about is a result of this. Because things change so quickly, there is added urgency to make not only the decision on equipment that is correct now, but will remain good for some time to come.

And it's important to remember that this competition isn't about the specs of the cameras. The specs actually have very little to do with it. Increased capability in a camera is great, but if a production isn't planning on using those capabilities, then they absolutely will do a cost/benefit analysis and base their camera decision accordingly.
Click to expand...

You're just stating the obvious. Every production consider different available tools(thus indirectly creating a competition between camera manufactures) - except for the ones where the photographer(usually low budget independent productions) already bought the camera and just cancelled out all creative decisions in that department that would influence the choice.

Your last point...so your saying that a production that isn't planning on using the SCARLET would choose a DSLR for example. So...they weren't competing at all really, because the SCARLET was never in consideration?

This actually just supports my argument that pro's will most likely choose the SCARLET over the likes of DSLR's and HD cameras (yeah, pro's actually consider the specs). People who only can afford a DSLR aren't really making a choice at all - some(also low budget productions) just wish they could afford something like the SCARLET).

If RED REALLY wanted to seriously compete (or wipe out) with the DSLR's, then wouldn't they have released the interchangeable first...? And, wouldn't the price(or the camera for that matter) of the accessories be dramatically different...?? They obviously are aiming their products at the pro segment - yeah, perhaps some should stop kidding themselves...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Fun thing is:
I don't really feel like the Epic is making me a better photographer, just a less distracted one who can focus on framing and lights and composition, instead of technicalities and how to solve post-issues....

Love that extra freedom of mind!

Cheers... :-)
Click to expand...

This statement expresses succinctly why I wait for Scarlet and why a DSLR, no matter what they do with them will never for me be a satisfactory general purpose motion production tool. They are not designed for that role. They are still cameras with add on video features. The fact that the next gen Canons will still have optical mirror systems and still not capture full motion at the full resolution of their sensors says enough. For some people and some applications they can work reasonably well, but they are not designed primarily for motion work.
 
Nuka Wølk said:
If RED REALLY wanted to seriously compete (or wipe out) with the DSLR's, then wouldn't they have released the interchangeable first...? And, wouldn't the price(or the camera for that matter) of the accessories be dramatically different...?? They obviously are aiming their products at the pro segment - yeah, perhaps some should stop kidding themselves...
Click to expand...

I dont' think that was an option. The interchangeable version requires more development than a fixed lens camera. Red, like any company, does not have unlimited resources. I"m sure they are making decisions to best utilize the resources they have to work with.

If a company could easily wipe out competition, I'm sure they would. What would be the reason not to?

Prices will be determined by what the market will bear, and what will maximize profits.
 
Well of course. Why would you shoot with a DSLR if you can get an Alexa or RED ONE or EPIC or F35?

I think we're all on the same page. I'm not really sure what is being discussed here. Whether 5Ds will be replaced by Scarlets as crash cams or something? I don't think anyone thinks DSLRs will be better than Scarlet once its released. They certainly are right now given their availability. But if anyone here actually thought DSLRs were somehow superior....why would they be on reduser?

I know I let my blood pressure rise when people diss DSLRs in any way because they are in fact, amazing cameras. Absolutely took the industry by storm and give younger people like me an opportunity to actually own a camera that produces a better image than anything costing several thousand more. (although that may be shifting...)

We're all just waiting for Scarlet or something else that creates a cleaner 1080p/2K image.
 
Ryan Farnes said:
Indeed.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612774/technical
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/rubber/
Click to expand...

Film making has never been more democratized. Even shooting 16mm used to be extremely expensive and you had to go edit on a flat bed. there weren't any alternatives because the video looked so crappy. Now we're getting to the point where the acquisition format is largely irrelevant, and is completely trumped by the talent of the film maker.

One of my favorite recent films is Monsters. It's shot with a Sony XDCAM in 1080p.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1470827/technical

I loved the direction. The framing of the shots, and the pacing of the story, the scenes with minimal dialog, and the special FX were very good IMO.

That doesn't mean we don't want newer cool cameras that can do amazing things at price points many people can afford. Progress is great, and I look forward to the release of the Scarlet, and watching great films shot on Epics.

But the bar for what is acceptable as a "movie" has been lowered. If you can't make a movie anyone would want to watch with a 5d, it's unlikely you can make an engaging film with a Scarlet, or an Epic, or 35mm film.
 
Ryan Farnes said:
Well of course. Why would you shoot with a DSLR if you can get an Alexa or RED ONE or EPIC or F35?

I think we're all on the same page. I'm not really sure what is being discussed here. Whether 5Ds will be replaced by Scarlets as crash cams or something? I don't think anyone thinks DSLRs will be better than Scarlet once its released. They certainly are right now given their availability. But if anyone here actually thought DSLRs were somehow superior....why would they be on reduser?

I know I let my blood pressure rise when people diss DSLRs in any way because they are in fact, amazing cameras. Absolutely took the industry by storm and give younger people like me an opportunity to actually own a camera that produces a better image than anything costing several thousand more. (although that may be shifting...)

We're all just waiting for Scarlet or something else that creates a cleaner 1080p/2K image.
Click to expand...

I think that's true. Who wouldn't want a cleaner image to work with at a reasonable price point? don't think there's any big argument. Nuka Wolk contends that none of the Red cameras compete with any of the Canon dslr cameras. I just think that's silly, because there is an overlap in the use for these cameras, so of course they compete.

I imagine we'll eventually see a movie shot on the 5d that is a very successful film. However, the camera alone doesn't make a good film. You need all the rest, good acting, a good DP, sets, post production, etc. And if you have the budget for all of that, you probably have the budget for a camera better suited to shooting a feature than the 5d.

But, there's always that talented writer and director that make something like Paranormal Activity, or Blair Witch, which breaks all the rules. It seems likely someone with very little money and a lot of talent will do something similar with a DSLR.
 
Eric Rodemann said:
I dont' think that was an option. The interchangeable version requires more development than a fixed lens camera. Red, like any company, does not have unlimited resources. I"m sure they are making decisions to best utilize the resources they have to work with.

If a company could easily wipe out competition, I'm sure they would. What would be the reason not to?

Prices will be determined by what the market will bear, and what will maximize profits.
Click to expand...

You're mindset about business is cut-throat and cold-blooded -- it's also very realistic. It's nice to hear the passion taken out of the debate.

The fact is, there is not a huge pool of potential customers. Only a very small percentage of the population has the desire to make a film. Therefore, the pool of potential customers is not unlimited. It should be expected that these companies will compete for future customers. Every customer does count.

We should call Scarlet and DSLRs what they are in business terms. They are: entry-level products. That should in no way say anything about their quality or capabilities. Their job is to introduce new consumers to a brand, build brand loyalty, and motivate a customer to buy accessories and other products from that company.

That competition is good for us. Other manufacturers will increase specs on their products, and I suspect that competition will keep the price of Scarlet within reason.
 
Ryan Farnes said:
Well of course. Why would you shoot with a DSLR if you can get an Alexa or RED ONE or EPIC or F35?

I think we're all on the same page. I'm not really sure what is being discussed here. Whether 5Ds will be replaced by Scarlets as crash cams or something? I don't think anyone thinks DSLRs will be better than Scarlet once its released. They certainly are right now given their availability. But if anyone here actually thought DSLRs were somehow superior....why would they be on reduser?

I know I let my blood pressure rise when people diss DSLRs in any way because they are in fact, amazing cameras. Absolutely took the industry by storm and give younger people like me an opportunity to actually own a camera that produces a better image than anything costing several thousand more. (although that may be shifting...)

We're all just waiting for Scarlet or something else that creates a cleaner 1080p/2K image.
Click to expand...

Please don't get a heart attack :D

Why did they shoot on DV-video on 28 days later(one of my favorite movies - also for the visuals)? Well, because they(Danny and Anthony) wanted a specific(dystopic) look that they didn't think film could produce in the way they envisioned this world. They actually chose to shoot 35mm for the end to give it another feel - of a more resolved and positive future I suspect.

When you make movies you can approach the choice of your camera with two main alternatives: 1. alternative; if you have the budget or if you think that it's important for the storytelling(and on movies it obviously is since it's a visual media) you have the priviledge to choose almost whatever appropriate tool to capture your specific images(this can range from anything from VHS to IMAX, depending on whichever visual artistic expression is being aimed for). 2. alternative; You might be stuck with a specific camera that the photographer on the team he himself bought - or because of the limited budget, the choice is between DSLR's, HD-camera and such.

Anyone can make a movie these days. All it takes is basically a vision, good storytelling skills, a few more talented people and a camera. But I think you must pick the right and specific tool that supports your story the best way(in all departments of filmmaking), or at least the best of your ability(also concerns budget).

I've used DSLR's and I think they are cool for what they can do - but for jobs where I believed it was creatively legitimized. Just picking up a DSLR and say you can do anything is just bad and arrogant filmmaking/cinematography in my opinion, as would be the same if you said you could do anything on 35mm and so on - I believe you have to go at each story, job or whatever - individually.

DSLR's are sometimes the perfect tool to do the job - sometimes they are just not. When it's really bad it just shows a production that just didn't have the budget to support their vision.
 
Eric Rodemann said:
I think that's true. Who wouldn't want a cleaner image to work with at a reasonable price point? don't think there's any big argument. Nuka Wolk contends that none of the Red cameras compete with any of the Canon dslr cameras. I just think that's silly, because there is an overlap in the use for these cameras, so of course they compete.

I imagine we'll eventually see a movie shot on the 5d that is a very successful film. However, the camera alone doesn't make a good film. You need all the rest, good acting, a good DP, sets, post production, etc. And if you have the budget for all of that, you probably have the budget for a camera better suited to shooting a feature than the 5d.

But, there's always that talented writer and director that make something like Paranormal Activity, or Blair Witch, which breaks all the rules. It seems likely someone with very little money and a lot of talent will do something similar with a DSLR.
Click to expand...

All it takes is the right idea to compliment the visuals that a DSLR can provide a specific vision.

Ok, Eric, that's it - you just got on my shitlist :D I've repeatedly advocated for the use of DSLR's (please dude, read my comments!). I myself used them for some jobs. But I won't use them for everything - like you probably would. Now, please, don't ever abuse my name to get your point across!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top