Scarlet vs Sony NEX-FS100 vs Canon HDSLRs

[Mooncricket]

Should we wait for the Scarlet or buy the new Sony NEX-FS100? I'm ready to buy either camera but the Scarlet is not out yet and it seems know one knows. I been ready to move on from my Canon 5D Mark 2 & 7D. Nice cameras but there are many issues I have with the canons that I do not like. For one the 12 minutes of recording is annoying and Canon pastel. There seems to always be magenta tint and tired of color correcting. Spending so much on more gear for the Canon Mark 2 gets pricey and rather put that into the Scarlet. The Sony has built in XLR mics and up to 3 hours of recording time which is perfect for weddings and long events. Only thing that has me debating on getting the Sony Fs100 is there seems to be trailing when the camera pans. That is what other forums say and i can't really see a good demo online for panning. The other thing is if I go buy the Sony Fs100 this month and suddenly Red announces the date release for the Scarlet then I will not be happy.

 

[Pascal Payant]

Canon is a great camera for WEB stuff. you can do beautiful film with any camera. the scarlet will be a professional motion picture camera. for you don't wait and just go buy anything you want now. if you want to do a feature film. don't use any of them except renting the RED or wait for the scarlet. the camera is not the ultimate solution. it,s all about story telling. i got a canon 5d and it work perfectly for short film , event etc..
Scarlet resolution will be unmatched by canon or sony. that's for sure. it,S not the same quality of camera. scarlet resolution is 3 times better than the other 2 you named

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

if I go buy the Sony Fs100 this month and suddenly Red announces the date release for the Scarlet then I will not be happy.

Welcome to technology! If you need a camera NOW, go buy one. FS100's and 5Ds will hold their value. You can always sell it and get a Scarlet once they come out. But Pascal is right, those other cameras don't hold a candle to what Scarlets will do. If you can hold out another 6 months, I'd wait. (6 months is my guess on readily available Scarlets).

 

[David Rasberry]

My take is if you are ready to move beyond the creative limitations of the available sub $10k HD video camera features and low bit rate high compression codecs, Scarlet will be worth the wait.

 

[Mooncricket]

Thank you. Yep that is what I need to know and hear but like you said canon for web stuff is great. I feel like I maxed out my Canon and for myself and I'm sure for many Canon users we get use to the look and can see what we don't like anymore and others can still be amazed by the look. I use old Nikkor Nikon lenses and I'm happy with it but I'm ready to move on to the next level. I have many feature screenplays I have written and I would rather shoot them on the Red Scarlet. I don't like renting cameras and rather buy and own them.

I don't have credit cards and my credit is bad but I do make good money now days that I seem to always invest my money back into film gear. I understand what happened with the big quake in Japan but it would be nice to know a realistic date when the camera is coming. I keep buying more accesories for my Canon 5D2 and I rather be saving for the Scarlet. So tempted to buy the Sony since it is available but like you said it is still a video type of camera and from what I seen some of the footage has that video noise. I was blown away when I seen test footage of the Epic at Cine Gear last earlier this month. If the Scarlet has a look close to that I am sold. I need to know the price so I can figure out what to sell of mine and hustle for more gigs and save.

 

[Paul Nordin]

Hi there Mooncricket. Nice to see another member from Emeryville! Just thought I'd mention that this is a real-name forum. Nicknames are not allowed. Cheers

 

[Mooncricket]

Cheers

Cheers

Welcome to technology! If you need a camera NOW, go buy one. FS100's and 5Ds will hold their value. You can always sell it and get a Scarlet once they come out. But Pascal is right, those other cameras don't hold a candle to what Scarlets will do. If you can hold out another 6 months, I'd wait. (6 months is my guess on readily available Scarlets).

Your right it will hold it's value. I plan on keeping my Canon 5D2 if I get the Sony that way I have a B-roll camera and I still enjoy taking photos. But if I do decide to get the Sony Fs100 I would sell it and sell my Canon 5D2 to get the Scarlet. Thanks for the tips as this helps me decide what to do because I don't think I can wait another 6 months.

The competition is tough since so many people have the Canon 5Ds and booking gigs is not easy as it use to be unless you spend the time to make a stunning reel which I'm slowly trying to catch up on. By getting the new Sony Fs100 I'm sure I can be back on top and stay busy in business and by the time the Scarlet comes out I can sell the Sony and announce I have the Scarlet and still be on top of the game.

Thanks Paul I didn't know that. I been on here reading info since o8 but my first time posting something. Cool your in Emeryville too. Our studio is right off Stanford. My nick name is what I have had since a kid and what most people that know me by.

Thank you
Beto Mooncricket Lopez
www.mooncricketfilms.com

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Uh ...

I see two issues.

The first one is that you don't want to buy more gear for the 5DMK2 and 7D.

Uh ... buy intelligently and you'll be buying the same gear for Epic or 7D. I mean, a follow focus is a follow focus right? If you are happy with DSLR lenses for motion imaging on a 7D, you'll be happier with them on Epic with Canon mount. If you are burning cash on stupid shoulder rigs ... well buy nicer shoulder rigs and they'll work with Epic and PL lenses as well as a 7D. (Seriously ... a Red "Clutch" system will work with a 7D.)

So ... just toss that reason out the window sir.

Now, my other issue is with the cameras you are comparing.

You have two S35 sensor cameras (DSLR and FS100) and a 2/3" camera (Scarlet)

What do you want and when do you need it?

Just because Scarlet is "better" doesn't mean it will suit your needs.

If Scarlet is truly in the running, then you should also consider Panasonic's 4/3" camera. ( AF-100 I think.)

If you are talking about EPIC-S, the "low end" S35 camera which used to be part of the Scarlet line-up, then its another matter.

For me there is no question, I use a 7D because I want the "S35" sensor size. Its more important that the audio issues or clip length issues. I can deal with most of the image issues usually.

I'm also willing to keep dealing with this camera so long as it earns for me, until I can afford to buy an Epic X or Epic M camera.

That said ... I also own a Canon XL-1 camera, and I'm thinking seriously of replacing THAT with a Scarlet fixed. I use it for an entirely different class of work though. One which has not supported even buying an HDV camera to replace it. I'm considering Scarlet, because the XL-1 is so limited.

Even there I'm considering a Scarlet Cinema with a good mid range zoom and some primes, so I can capture some ENG/EFP work.

So, is the S35 sensor important to you? If so skip the Scarlet. Get Epic S when its available.

Do you have to do a project now, but need S35? Well don't wait, get the FS100 or keep shooting your DSLR. For right now F3 is also excellent - and for most 1080p delivery can be good as Epic S if you shoot properly and use outboard recorders - plus its available NOW.

Just want a better camera for the future, and budget is a big issue? Scarlet is fantastic.

Need a better camera TODAY, but budgets are TIGHT? AF-100, and FS100 are great choices - and both have larger sensors than Scarlet.

Need a better camera TODAY for paid projects? You should consider Sony's XDCAM EX 350 and Panasonic's HPX-3100. Both under $20k USD, both fairly formidable. F3 comes back in the picture at this price point.

Got a properly budgeted feature in the next 6 months or so? Epic X or Epic M.

So much depends on what you want and need though ...

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

The only problem with DSLRs & "S35" sensors is they don't resolve more than 500 or 600 lines... Any consumer camcorder will resolve 1000 lines in HD.

So you get the DOF 'cinema wannabe' effect but it's barely SD. Add to this moire & other side effects... I prefer XD cams or HDV cams 10x times than DSLRs.

 

[Mike P.]

Just my two cents, I'd say try to hold on with what you've got. I think the FS100 is decent enough camera (on paper, anyway) and chances are you'll be completely satisfied with it, but if you eventually plan on getting a Scarlet anyway for raw and higher resolution, buying an FS100 is needlessly risking money. What I mean is, you'll be able to sell it when scarlet drops, but it'd probably be at a substantially reduced price (since a lot of would-be buyers would opt for a scarlet instead.)

Other food for thought; with Scarlet you'll always be color correcting, rendering, or at the very least applying a colour space, since it's RAW... Even if you use proxies or another half-baked workflow (not a "shoddy" workflow, but a medium-rare one that's not quite raw), you'll have to apply a look and render to a deliverable format, which can be quite a bit more taxing on your computer without a redrocket than other formats (which should probably be a mac, since RED windows support lags behind OSX development a bit.) That being said, I've heard mention of a ProRes module for Epic (and I assume Scarlet), but that could just be rumours... and it'll increase cost, add to your gear, and probably won't be available when Scarlet drops.

 

[C. Jagan Mohan]

Frankly speaking camera role in film making not a big one. Good story, nice screenplay and well story telling skills these are main. The best resolution 4K, 6K etc. are not going to make your movie a great movie.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Frankly speaking camera role in film making not a big one. Good story, nice screenplay and well story telling skills these are main. The best resolution 4K, 6K etc. are not going to make your movie a great movie.

Always true.

But if you want to create great images, then I think Scarlet is a good camera to save up for. Realize that you won't get a Scarlet for the same price as a 5D Mark II. It's more expensive and you don't have the s35 DOF, but what you get instead is a resolution, color and latitude that many $90 000 cameras won't come close to.

Don't think about DOF too much, it's not what makes a great image. You have a better tool with the Scarlet, there's nothing like it on the market (if someone doesn't release something at the same time which I don't think).

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The only problem with DSLRs & "S35" sensors is they don't resolve more than 500 or 600 lines... Any consumer camcorder will resolve 1000 lines in HD.

So you get the DOF 'cinema wannabe' effect but it's barely SD. Add to this moire & other side effects... I prefer XD cams or HDV cams 10x times than DSLRs.

Uh ... that's not really true. It may be true when you are pointed at a chart. Depending on your lenses and settings.

As usual the truth is way more complicated.

First off, a DSLR used properly has sharpness dialed all the way down.

Consumer camcorders dial sharpness way up to get "resolution" that only works well on charts. You usually can't turn it off, and it often results in ringing and other artifacts.

Even a good prosumer camcorder like the EX1 only resolves in the 900 line range, once you crank sharpness down.

Secondly, I get better measured resolution than 600 lines from a 7D. Usually in the 800 range. (again sharpness cranked down)

OK ... finally who cares? The OP's question is about what to do in the camera market, not about what the cameras are or how they perform. The OP is already using DSLR's with some satisfaction.

Look at the pictures please. We look at charts to understand what we might get on certain pictures. The pictures are the point. On real pictures the images are sharp and highly detailed.

Its not a Red of course. Its also not an EX1 or an F3. So, stop hating and start evaluating. Remember to keep price point and application in mind as you evaluate.

So what to do?

User is fairly happy with DSLR images. Needs to be able to run longer takes. Needs to be able to record audio in camera, might want to get away from some aliasing ... but they also want to get a much better cinema camera.

My answer is above. I think that DSLR is the worst option in many ways ... and that DSLR is actually pretty good! Enough so that if using an S35 size sensor is important on a budget or if size is an issue ... its sometimes a great choice!

So ... forget the numbers on DSLR's, and let's not waste time bashing them. What would you do?

 

[peter roehsler]

Should we wait for the Scarlet or buy the new Sony NEX-FS100?

If the image processing of this new Sony cam is anything similar to it´s consumer-predecessor, the NEX VG10, prepare yourself for some nasty moire from line skipping - pretty hard to see in the finder or in the monitor. I could of course be wrong here, but I doubt this has improved dramatically with this model. But let´s assume this issue has been resolved, you still may want to buy an external recorder to avoid AVCHD compression. After you have spent a nice sum on this gear, you would not want to ruin your photography with amateurish zoom lenses (ramping 3,5-6,3 or so). You will be in for some 35mm cine-glass, minimum at 4.000-6.000 USD for used (or new RED) zooms, or at least twice that much for a set of primes.
In the end you will have spent quite a bit of cash to get a working system, most probably much more than a good basic SCARLET kit will cost.
While waiting for SCARLET, as we all do, you could spend this extra money on rentals for immediate projects.
just my 0,02 euros ...

 

[Eric Rodemann]

Don't pinch those pennies so hard. Buy an FS100 right now. Shoot the hell out of it. When Scarlet comes out, sell it for what you can get, buy a Scarlet.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Hey Mooncricket, if Emeryville was closer, I'd swing by and let you shoot some tests. One of my cameras is a Sony F3 (same sensor as FS100). The F3 and FS100 can achieve similar looks, with the sensor being the same, the processing on F3 is superior. I have not seen any of the "trailing issues" you mention. We're all waiting for the Scarlet, true. If I count the number of projects that I'd have missed if I hadn't got a camera that was available, I'd feel like I've wasted a few years waiting on Scarlet.

Yes the Scarlet will be a nice camera but I seriously could not see waiting, when there is stuff that needs to be show NOW. Not 8 months from now.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

If the image processing of this new Sony cam is anything similar to it´s consumer-predecessor, the NEX VG10, prepare yourself for some nasty moire from line skipping - pretty hard to see in the finder or in the monitor. I could of course be wrong here, but I doubt this has improved dramatically with this model.

Well image processing and scaling is rather different in the FS100 vs the VG10.

The VG10 is "pretty bad" from the standpoint of professionals accustomed to cameras like Red, Alex & F3, but its actually a step up from DSLR's from what little I have seen.

My understanding is that the hardware of the VG10 is very much like that of an Alpha DSLR, but it uses a OLPF tuned for video.

The FS100 is supposed to step that up with an internal processing system borrowed in part from the EX series, with a few concessions to price. Its like an econo-F3.

But let´s assume this issue has been resolved, you still may want to buy an external recorder to avoid AVCHD compression.

Agreed ... its a great improvement just to get footage onto a KiPro Mini or an Atomos Ninja.

After you have spent a nice sum on this gear, you would not want to ruin your photography with amateurish zoom lenses (ramping 3,5-6,3 or so). You will be in for some 35mm cine-glass, minimum at 4.000-6.000 USD for used (or new RED) zooms, or at least twice that much for a set of primes.

I agree with the objective "avoid crappy lenses" but you don't have to go to cinema lenses for this.

You can invest in Nikon mounted lenses, ideally with manual operation. You can find a plethora of fully manual Nikkor lenses on the market for very very low prices.

If you want new lenses, Zeiss's ZF series will work well. If you need or want cine-mods Duclos "cinevised" ZF lenses are a great product.

There are a number of good SLR zooms as well. You get the point though.

In the end you will have spent quite a bit of cash to get a working system, most probably much more than a good basic SCARLET kit will cost.

The basic scarlet kit will not meet certain image criteria that the FS100 will deliver, while exceeding it in others.

Mostly the FS100 is a solid S35 camera system. It delivers nearly EX1 quality, and you can use affordable SLR lenses.

Scarlet will outperform FS100 in most categories, but it has a fixed lens, or if you buy "Scarlet Cinema" you are going to spend a lot of money on lenses there as well - even if you can immediately snag Red mini-primes. You are also looking at 2/3" imager and its respective characteristics.

That may be acceptable to some. But no one seems to be asking that question of the OP.

While waiting for SCARLET, as we all do, you could spend this extra money on rentals for immediate projects.
just my 0,02 euros ...

I'd also seriously consider rentals as well.

Is the opportunity cost on the FS100 worth buying?

If you are going to shoot5-6 days this year, then obviously not. You can have an F3 for that time frame with a Red 18-85 zoom for $3600 if you rent individual days or $2400 if its a single 7 day shoot.

Heck, two week long shoots would be less than the body cost on the FS100.

Remember that's a $20,000 + camera kit at rental.

If you work regularly, you can save quite a bit of money by buying. Even if you treat the camera as disposable.

Looking at the F3 kit again, with a Red 18-85 new ... no additional gear and you are at ~$24000. 40 days (or ten weeks) rental breaks that camera even - almost everything afterwards is profit.

So, what makes economic sense to YOU?

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Looking at the F3 kit again, with a Red 18-85 new ... no additional gear and you are at ~$24000. 40 days (or ten weeks) rental breaks that camera even - almost everything afterwards is profit.

Agreed, my first feature work with my F3 paid for about 25% of the kit cost. The feature hasn't wrapped yet and I just found out I'll get some b-cam work on this same film, which will take me pretty close for 50% of the camera paid for on just ONE film. I have enough happening this year that will pay for the camera kit 100%. I'm sure anyone buying a Scarlet will have similar stories but you'll have to wait a few months for those stories.

 

[Pascal Payant]

By the way Yes Scarlet will be a great camera resolution wise but for film yes DOF is a must. that's why these canon 5d mark2, 7D are so great it's because of that. for indie feature film, you need to have that. I hope the scarlet can create great DOF

 

[Bryce O]

The only problem with DSLRs & "S35" sensors is they don't resolve more than 500 or 600 lines... Any consumer camcorder will resolve 1000 lines in HD.

So you get the DOF 'cinema wannabe' effect but it's barely SD. Add to this moire & other side effects... I prefer XD cams or HDV cams 10x times than DSLRs.

Actually the GH2 resolves a pretty clean 1000 lines. It's got it's own set of problems... but clean 1080p resolution is not one of them. Plus, it has better DR range and highlights than the AF-100. I have a feeling the GH2 chip came from the generation after the AF-100 imager.

It's a shame Panasonic didn't include at least the 50mbs AVCHD-Intra on the AF-100. I would have bought it in a second.

Although, all things considered, broadcast codecs (even the best ones) are just a dying technology... :thumbdown: