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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What colour Grading system should I upgrade to?

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Adam Eden

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Hi All

I have been finishing on Avid Symphony since Version 1.0. I love it, i haven't found a system faster or more productive than Symphony.

Here is the catch and my question.... Since I am so verse on the AVID system and I need to finish at 4k, what grading system do i need to upgrade to?

I have heard a lot about Resolve, Scratch, Baselight and lustre, but being so used to grading on AVID symphony, what do you all recommend would be the easiest transition to go to?

I also have an AVID MEDIA ENGINE/ISIS and the system would need to integrate into this as we finish a lot of tv commercials and AVID DNX-185X.

This new system would have to be able to finish feature films at 4K and we would have to have the ability to deliver to the distributors in what ever format they require.

We currently finish features at 1:1 uncompressed AVID codec at 4:4:4 and output to HDCAM SR with 8 track audio. But we are starting to get requests to finish at 4K.

Sorry forgot to mention that the new system has to be fully compatible with RED and EPIC as I have 1 rocket card at the moment but I don't mind buying more.

Thanks in advance.
 
Pablo 4K or Baselight. Seems like you need both a finishing system combined with a color grading system.
 
If you want a system that gives you full editorial/visual effects capability as well as grading, then Quantel iQ/Pablo is really the only option. This will be the most direct transition for you into a system that offers a similar workflow to Symphony.

- Oliver
 
I agree with Oliver that you seem to be looking for a hero box, one that can do everything well. Assuming that your finances are appropriate for these devices, my recommendation would probably be either Pablo (as suggested by Oliver), or Autodesk's Flame Premium package, which would give you Flame, Smoke, and Lustre on one box (hence the hero box concept), and likely be considerably more economical than Quantel's product. You could also use non-proprietary storage, an option you won't have with Pablo. But either one would work well, it's more a matter of what you and your artists prefer in terms of a tool set, where their experience lies, and your clientele's familiarity with either one or the other. Another option, if you want to do a little systems engineering, would be a combination of Smoke or Avid DS, and Resolve or Baselight. This kind of setup would move you out of the hero box mentality, but in return would give you more workflow flexibility. Of course, to do true real time 4K work in Baselight requires the Baselight 8, at least for the moment, and that's a pretty pricey proposition...
 
Mark Toia said:
Davinchi Resolve... never look back. :)
$990 Dollars... try it on your laptop first then decide to get a full blown desk.
If you want easy... this is it.
Click to expand...

It's going to cost a lot more than that to set up a system that is 4K capable, especially for anything other than Red source. Of course, if a 4K archival render is all that is needed, any of these devices (plus Assimilate Scratch) would accommodate that. But to play back conformed/color graded/titled and finished material at 4K interactively with clients is going to take, shall we say, a bit more horsepower than you're going to get from a Mac based Resolve. Not to mention that at that resolution, you still need a finishing solution, which Resolve really is not.

Not everybody is looking only at the price tag. Not that you are, but it definitely doesn't sound like the original poster is.
 
We use Pablo. It's the only system that does everything you're asking for in one box. Everything else would most likely need to got through a Smoke before and/or after the color system.
 
I think it could be argued that Flame Premium also offers everything in one box, just not in one application. Hence why I brought it up as a "hero box" alternative. Not as integrated as Pablo (can't be, it's ultimately 3 separate applications), not quite as directed in terms of a DI hero box, but similar capabilities. Actually superior in terms of VFX (after all, it's Flame), but similar in terms of conforming, editing, and grading.
 
Mark

can you load resolve onto a new macbook pro?
 
Adam,

Why not Avid DS? It conforms very well w/ Symphony/MC. It can do 4K. It has okay CC tools, but not nearly as fast as a Baselight. But you can do 5.1, titles, cut, VFX, etc. all in one box.

At $10K (which includes a copy of MC), it's a freaking steal, esp. when you compare it to the price of a Pablo.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys.

I have had AVID DS for over 5 years and no one in my office can figure it out! I had one guy years ago that was OK at it. DS in Australia is pretty dead as there are no operators so I have a DS Version 10.4 on an HP8400 with a NITRIS gathering dust.

You cant really output proper 4k as it has a horrible workflow.

I wish AVID upgraded SYMPHONY to 4k as that would be a perfect solution and I am surprised that they just released version 5.5 and about to release version 6 and still no 4k!.

How do you guys deliver 4k these days anyway? Is it still a 10Bit DPX sequence or JPEG 2000 sequence? I really like HDCAM SR as it is easy.

Does anyone know any company in Australia that really knows and supports a 4k system, as Techtel sell scratch, and future realty sell Flame and thats about it these days, besides every man and its dog selling RESOLVE.

I don't mind spending 100K on something, just as long as its turnkey and has rapid support if it dies.

There are only a couple of "big boys" in Australia that people go to for finsihing and that is THE LAB, DELUXE, CUTTING EDGE and FRAME, SET MATCH. They all charge a fortune for finishing features. There is a shortage of boutique film companies like myself in Sydney, Australia and all of my customers really want 4K and I am trying to help.

When we currently finish to SR and it gets up ressed to 2K it looks great. Its just this 4K hurdle.

I know Jim Jannard keeps stating 4K is king and everyone is going to go that way.... Well i think its a long way off for the masses as It is really out of reach for most.

Come on AVID pull your finger out. Or maybe RED can buy AVID and then we could have a whole system!

Ill check out PABLO. Thanks guys
 
Hey what do you all think of IRIDAS? Deluxe in Australia use this but I don't know much about it.
 
Film out delivery is 10bit dpx, DCDM would be XYZ tiffs. So data all the way. It can be easier than going to SR once you get the workflow nailed down.

Park Road in NZ has a few Pablos and also Mistika. Don't really know anyone else over there who does 4K. Doesn't Blackmagic run a huge facility somewhere?

Pablo will probably cost more than 100K, but they have really superb support- so I sleep easy at night.
 
Adam Eden said:
How do you guys deliver 4k these days anyway? Is it still a 10Bit DPX sequence or JPEG 2000 sequence? I really like HDCAM SR as it is easy.

I don't mind spending 100K on something, just as long as its turnkey and has rapid support if it dies.

Ill check out PABLO. Thanks guys
Click to expand...

If you are interested in finishing films in 4K for theatrical distribution you should also look at Clipster. You will need to make all sorts of deliverables for a 4K feature film including a DCP which is the package used for digital projection. Clipster is really the best tool on the market for this and if you are doing 4K films Clipster is really the only game in town. The jpeg2000 encoding is done in hardware in real time on the Clipster. Doing a 4K software based encode would take eons. Clipster would be solely for the DCP creation and other deliverables, you could do all your grading and finishing in Pablo. Pablo is in the $300-$500k price range and Clipster in the $100 - $150k range. For what you want to do you would need both. You may also want to check out SGO Mistika. I don't have a ton of experience with them but they AIM to be a 'hero box' and they have the best stereo tool set on the market, bar none. As M. Most pointed out, Flame Premium would be a good alternative to Pablo but they really are different products and while more expensive, it sounds like Pablo is more suited to your needs. With either Flame or Pablo, you would still need a Pablo if you want to create the deliverables.
 
In July this year we have a small version of NAB called SMPTE. Ill have a look at all of these things. (Well i hope they are there!).

My first Avid Symphony was $200K now they are new at around $30K I believe. I can't justify $300K so I might have to wait and see what drops in price.

I have been finishing on SR for a long time now and it holds up great on the silver screen. But that is some serious investment!
 
Check out Resolve.

The XML interchange with FCP is nice and preserves a lot of data like transitions. I don't know how true that is with Avid .... the point being its worth investigating the workflow to offline 2K in Symphony and online/finish 4K in Resolve.

Also FCP is supposed to be 4K in its next release ... also worth investigating. I obviously haven't used it ... I just think its worth looking at.

Finally there is this Flame thing others have pointed you at ... you may want to try out Smoke. Not as capable as the Flame package, but actually very solid - and all one package. I'm actually considering Smoke+Resolve if I'm not happy with FCP X and the other suite programs.

Of course the point of Smoke is to satisfy all my post needs without switching applications - I don't know if it really can.
 
I have a question. If you can't find someone to drive your DS, will you be able to find someone to operate a Quantel or Autodesk system. I don't know Quantel very well but the stuff I have seen didn't make it look like you can sit down and figure it out and I know Autodesk tools are not easy to use until you spend a lot of time learning them. I haven't used DS, but I was under the impression it was pretty user friendly comparatively. I think a smarter question is what tool do the artists in your area know.

You could also look at IFX. Their Piranaha system is in the same vein as the others mentioned. (http://ifxsoftware.com)


Dusty
 
One interesting "one app compositing grading solution" may become available fairly soon, although this is pure speculation on my part, but it's very exciting possibility nevertheless. I'm talking about NUKE+Baselight combination. BL is a NUKE plugin, that FL announced not long time ago. There are no details as of now, but if it's anything, like BL plugin for FCP, it may be interesting. It wouldn't be nowhere near as good, as Flame-Lustre combo, but it would be better, than CC and CW inside Flame or Smoke. Regardless, this combination will not be capable of 4k real time, but most people don't need it anyway. Just a thought...
 
Dustin Cross said:
I have a question. If you can't find someone to drive your DS, will you be able to find someone to operate a Quantel or Autodesk system. I don't know Quantel very well but the stuff I have seen didn't make it look like you can sit down and figure it out and I know Autodesk tools are not easy to use until you spend a lot of time learning them. I haven't used DS, but I was under the impression it was pretty user friendly comparatively. I think a smarter question is what tool do the artists in your area know.
Click to expand...
This question will apply to pretty much any high end grading software. If anyone could just sit down and start grading without any training, then who would need colorists?
 
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