Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Hopefully I don't get in trouble for this!

This has been the first NAB for a few years I was not too interested what Red will announce.

1. I had the impression that all is already said.

2. The Japan desaster delays things considerably. The supply delays in the film industry are the least hurting
results from this vast desaster. I feel very sorry for the friends from Japan.

3. Epic is out. Which is great.

4. Like with the RedOne 3 years ago we will face shifting delivery estimates. I'm used to that and I don't complain -
I've got already a superb digital 35mm camera.

5. Having my EpicX in the hands right now would be great but the RedOne is still a great camera and delivers the
pictures I need for my projects.

However, Jim's announcement that Epic will be upgradable in regards to the sensor is a big thing and was pretty
unpredictable for me. Thanks for that!

I'm not a big fan of Red's industrial design but Red's customer service is second to none in the industry and their
thinking out of the box changed a lot.

Now back to filmmaking.

Hans
 
Finner said:
I get what you guys are saying but the thing is if you understand the first thing about Red it is that they allow cameras to be upgradeable or offer trade in options; remember "Obsolescence Obsolete". When myself and many others pre-ordered our reds many years ago this was one of the key things that attracted over 1000 orders. So unless people have been under a rock for 6 years I don't know why they would not already know this or be surprised by it ;)
Click to expand...

Alright, it's late... and maybe I missed it in the thread? But, when the move to the new modular system Epic/Monstro, etc.... was laid out, I believe it was stated by RED, that the brains would Not be sensor upgradable....

And in that context, when I heard the BIG announcement, I was Thrilled! (Thanks Jim/Team RED).....

Clearly its unknown what the size of the sensor will be. So what? I'll jump on a upgrade sensor that brings the next generation specs.

Finner knows .... most of the time......, lol.... Ah jk, you have some great posts Finner, no doubt.
 
There would be a saving of somewhere $20000 to $25000 if we don't have to buy whole brain. That is in a way similar to Epic-X deal for existing Red Customers. Nobody had anticipated this. And that's why it is a big surprise.
 
There's no doubt Red Dragon is a good deal. None. But I must agree with Finner, it's been a PR fiasco. Obsolesces Obsolete is supposed to be part of the company DNA. I thought that was the point...

I applaud the fact that you can upgrade your sensor without replacing the brain, that is big news indeed, but to announce RED Dragon in this way, before any Epic X production models have been released is absurd. It focusses attention on the performance of the sensor rather than the upgrade. It says to the complainers and skeptics "the current sensor is okay, but in a few months you can buy a better one". From a PR perspective it looks like a reaction to circumstances rather than a carefully planned announcement which is something I thought RED wanted to move away from in recent months; I thought there was to be an end to vague announcements of this type.

Why not simply announce you can now easily replace the sensor, so people won't have have to buy a new brain when they take advantage of future upgrades? It makes the focus of attention the upgrade and not the sensor.

Far be it for me to tell a successful and dynamic visionary like Jim Jannard how to handle his PR, particularly as I'm jet-lagged, but that's my 10c and I give it for free:)

Happy shooting everyone.
 
PR is PR and comes in many forms and can be spun in many ways by the critics.

Boom line the new sensor news is fantastic news any way you want to slice it.

There isn't one camera out there that a potential buyer doesn't have to wonder whether they can get they're ROI out of the camera before it becomes obsolete, or last years model... except from Red. Even the Alexa which is hot as a pistol right now could very well become a pricey door stop when the next advancement comes along and its too expensive to upgrade because they probably didn't design "upgrade path" into the camera. The advancements are coming quickly these days and even the most popular cameras seem to have a 2-3 year cycle at best.

The modular/upgradeable design concept is brilliant, and will save the customer HUGE if the camera system even only lasts 8-9 years, with a few upgrades before the next revolutionary system arrives. Most other cameras are literally "disposable" after only a few years even though physically a professional system should easily last for 15 years of hard use if not longer.

Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Canon.... forget about it. I'm not one to be a fan-boy, but this new Modular system is a "no brainer" folks, and the upgrade to a Monstro sensor.... OMG, what a deal, sign me up! Maybe they hauled out an announcement that was scheduled for further down the road because other surprises were not ready (Japan, etc) and red-users had been prepared for news.... who cares, its all good stuff. Relax.... people are so critical around here, go get a job.... make some films.... and try not to spend every moment hanging out on red-user analyzing every word.... and being critical of the very company that's bringing you all these great toys. Jeez.... they are working hard and doing they're best, and we will all benefit from all the ground breaking work Red is doing. The gear will be ready when its ready and not a moment before.

Peace-out.
 
It was the little things, like the OLPF that got my attention. The Dragon announcement is nice now, but will be MAJOR a couple years from now (When I need it!).

As for me, I was really hopinig that the Stage II items and pricing were going to be locked down and announced at NAB. Either way I am sure it will happen some day.

Jay
 
1. Can someone take a squint inside an EPIC and post: do you think there's enough room in there for a FF35 sensor? Frankly that possibility never even occurred to me!

2. I just had a thought. You know what we *didn't* hear about at NAB? As far I can recall it wasn't even asked about or discussed here? RED electronic lenses for EPIC... there was some speculation about those prior to NAB I believe.

Mike
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
As for me, I was really hoping that the Stage II items and pricing were going to be locked down and announced at NAB. Either way I am sure it will happen some day.

Jay
Click to expand...

+1

Add to that Stage 3 and 3.5.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
As for me, I was really hopinig that the Stage II items and pricing were going to be locked down and announced at NAB. Either way I am sure it will happen some day.

Jay
Click to expand...
I'm sure there would have been an announcement if the earthquake hadn't struck Japan. I think we can all agree cameras and other gear being delayed is small beer in comparison to what some people are going through over there.
 
I'm afraid I think Finner's analysis here is right up there with his enthusiasm for the fabulous Carrion monitor. And really I think there are some people who would only be happy if they were shown 5K footage of Jim actually walking on water. The only PR competition Red is having is with itself. Nobody, but nobody in the camera business does what these guys do. From the point of view of an actual customer, the chip upgrade is very big news and very good news. Red is just a camera company, a very good camera company doing the best it can with a lot of difficulties right now, difficulties that are way beyond it's control.
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
However the fact that now we are no longer needing to buy a NEW BRAIN to go FF, that is the news to me!!

Meaning that if any of us M owners and or future Epic X owners, decide to go FF we don't have to do anything else then send
in our Epic and get the sensor upgraded as we all did with the R1's for M swap to MX.
Click to expand...

I think that the news isn't about FF.

From looking at the Epic-M I'd be surprised if that camera can be made into a FF camera.

I think this is much more like the Red One Mysterium to Mysterium-X upgrade. Without changing the brain, we might get a LITTLE wider FOV, but like the M vs. the MX it won't be the sensors FOV that makes you buy.

The most I think we can expect is something like we got from the M-X upgrade ... the 4.5k 2.35:1 mode. (I'm explicitly not predicting that, just throwing it out as a historical example.)

It will be some combination of FoV, improved resolution, read-out rates, DoF and light sensitivity.

My bets are on increased DR and light sensitivity, plus faster read out rates.

Note that a faster read-out rate would also enable faster frame rates- but that may require new processing boards as well.

I now feel the strong urge to "predict" the new specs, so its time to quit writing.

So ... these are just my thoughts -I wouldn't call them a "prediction" and they certainly are NOT any info from Red.

Jannard said:
The exact size and specs of the sensor have not been announced...

Jim
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You didn't have to attend NAB to see Finner's point. When you boil down the big announcement to its essence, it's Red announcing that "obsolescence is obsolete" once again. No specs or pricing. And since there are still no production Epics out there yet, they didn't even have to announce it. I think it would have more of an impact 6 months from now when Epic X starts turning up in productions all over the world. Perhaps it kept a few buyers from getting too excited about Sony or Arri offerings but I never saw those guys as competition anyway. Different cams, workflows, pricing and most importantly, different corporate philosophies. I'm all in with Red. I just don't think the announcements this year even factored into that.
 
Jim says
Jannard said:
Obsolescence obsolete is alive.
Click to expand...
But actually this announcement makes me fear the opposite. The whole point of the modular system was that you wouldn't need upgrades like Red Dragon because you could just buy the next brain. Now I'm wondering if Red's decided there won't be a "next" brain (especially for Scarlet, now that there's only one of them).
 
Lee Saxon said:
Jim says

But actually this announcement makes me fear the opposite. The whole point of the modular system was that you wouldn't need upgrades like Red Dragon because you could just buy the next brain. Now I'm wondering if Red's decided there won't be a "next" brain (especially for Scarlet, now that there's only one of them).
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be too concerned on this point.

If you have a close look at Scarlet it "fits" in the Epic ecosystem. You can drop a RedMote on it, you can also probably drop the other Epic modules on it, with few if any exceptions. I'm willing to bet it will fit in ET's Atomos rig ... etc etc.

In other words the worst off you'll end up with Scarlet is having to buy a new brain- all your other widgets and modules should transfer to a future Epic system.

As far as the Dragon sensor upgrade goes- its probably a cheaper option than a new brain would be.

Now, the good news is that, if you so choose, you could just hold off and buy an "Epic 645" brain or whatever- so all your other camera grip and Epic modules should transfer readily.

So, rather than restricting the obsolescence obsolete mantra- they've expanded it from the previously announced policies.

Instead of a single path to new technology (a new brain) you now have two paths (a new brain AND a sensor upgrade)

I can't see how this is a bad thing.
 
*Sigh*

Why do some people manage to turn the announcement of a fantastic offer into something negative? ("PR desaster", "fear", etc...)

Except for delivery time targets, RED has never, ever let us down. Frequently they have bettered the offer. The least we can give them back is the benefit of doubt.

And please, if you are unhappy, there is more than just black and white. Differentiate, don't paint things in pitch black, when they are just muddled white.

Lee - the EPIC comes with the MX sensor as standard, which was an upgrade option on the previous camera. What makes you think that RED, the digital cinema camera company, would stop producing cameras and only offer sensor upgrades?
 
Martin Weiss said:
Why do some people manage to turn the announcement of a fantastic offer into something negative? ("PR desaster", "fear", etc...)
Click to expand...
Because it's the internet and everyone's an expert in some things and paranoid about everything else:)

Seriously, it aint rocket science, it's just basic perception; Arri had a photograph of James Cameron holding an Alexa M. RED announced RED Dragon along with an iPad app, a projector, RedRay, a software release and some bad news about Epic X delivery due to the earthquake. Now if you are a producer with a passing interest in camera tech, what will you remember from all that?

BTW I have total faith in RED, both their equipment and their ability to deliver - they don't need a good PR campaign for people like me. It's the men in suits who we have to convince...
 
Lee Saxon said:
Jim says

But actually this announcement makes me fear the opposite. The whole point of the modular system was that you wouldn't need upgrades like Red Dragon because you could just buy the next brain. Now I'm wondering if Red's decided there won't be a "next" brain (especially for Scarlet, now that there's only one of them).
Click to expand...

I'm lost on this one. You are afraid that an upgrade means that there won't be new "Brains" added to the system? Really?

The RED Dragon will be an upgrade. And other sensors will require a new brain. Not exactly sure how to fit a 617 sensor into the current EPIC body.

It amazes me what people can read into things... my fear is that someone who reads these posts actually believes them.

Back to work...

Jim
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
Oh you mena you guys are no longer working on the "TRANSFORMER" technology??? ;)
Click to expand...

Oh no, Ketch... I can see the THR headline now: "Industry sources say RED has canceled the secret Transformer program. Jannard thinks it was a mistake." :banghead:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top