THE M8 (008) Discussion thread

[alexx_hg]

Thanks Michael...I agree fully

To give another twist on your analogy, there are three types of people in the world (and in this industry):

1) Those who make things happen

2) Those who watch (or simply criticize) what is happening

3) Those who wonder what the heck just happened

I'm a Type 1, as are each of our crew this past week, all of Red Team, and a huge percentage of the members of Red User. But unfortunately there is also no shortage in this industry (and in the world) of Types 2 and 3

Steve,
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Around 15 Years ago I met Jim Lovell (Apollo13) an he used the same wording. He found himself on position " two" and "three" while in outerspace and he was very thankful that people on position "one" brought him back to the earth. Just want to say that sometimes you have no control on your personal setting (1.2.3).

So do I, when reading reduser especially "recon", I often found me at 2 or 3. (without criticising):smile5:

 

[Martin Weiss]

Correct...no HDRx™ on these shots.

Amazing - I was sure that the tunnel shot must have had HDRx.

Beautiful shots, great range.

(Is it really Pamala or did I spot a typo?)

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Correct...no HDRx™™ on these shots.

I hope the scarlet dynamic range is not to far from this! HDRx™ will be so amazing I don't know where to start! The barn shot keeps popping up in my head!

 

[Steve Gibby]

If you look at the first still posted with the scooter its easy to se how much details vimeo eats up. I can only imagine what the raw files holds! and this was with no HDRx™ as I understand. Any 1080p download able version anytime soon?

I have copies of all the raw files right here at my studio. Even on a good 1080p monitor the detail in the shots is incredible. Vimeo is simply a vehicle to get a highly compressed taste out to the world. We obviously understand how compression can lessen detail - we gain the mass distribution, but lose the detail - we get that, and always have.

Yes, if you closely check the snowmobile shot, which obviously is a JPEG still taken from a raw still frame, even though some detail is lost in the transcoding from raw to JPEG, you can see way more detail in the snow, snowmobile, and even in the trees, then you ever could see in the Vimeo version.

We're working on a 1080p download availability. We'd prefer that be through the Ketch Rossi Studios web site. When we're ready, we'll announce that here.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I think the 1080p Vimeo's version is around 1/32 quality of the original.

Just my guess.

You have got to see it on the big calibrated 2K or 4K projectors.

Yes definitely. When I was working as an executive producer and DP for the last National Geographic special I did, the studios (two of them in different locations) we worked out of had Sony SXRD 4k projectors, with huge screens. Each day, or whenever we could get back to one of the studios, we'd view our Red 4k footage in 4k. The amount of detail we could see was stunning.

Since you worked with our post team on this Epic M8 color work, and viewed the footage on large calibrated monitors, I'm sure it was an eye opener for sure.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve,
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Around 15 Years ago I met Jim Lovell (Apollo13) an he used the same wording. He found himself on position " two" and "three" while in outerspace and he was very thankful that people on position "one" brought him back to the earth. Just want to say that sometimes you have no control on your personal setting (1.2.3).

So do I, when reading reduser especially "recon", I often found me at 2 or 3. (without criticising):smile5:

Thank you...

He he - I don't think anyone can stay as a 1, 2, or 3 100% of their entire life. There will always be times when we're caught just watching things happen, or worse, wondering what just happened. I learned to be proactive and limit my 2 and 3 time during my first career (long before I launched into media work), when I worked for 8 years as an air traffic controller. In that profession, If you don't spend almost all your time as a 1, you can easily kill someone.

I think you make a very good point though - and that is that our time spend analyzing things as a 2, help us to be a much better 1. IMO the trick for success in this industry is to be a 1 as much as possible, a 2 when its necessary, and be a 3 as seldom as possible, if at all

 

[Steve Gibby]

Amazing - I was sure that the tunnel shot must have had HDRx™.

Beautiful shots, great range.

(Is it really Pamala or did I spot a typo?)

Thanks Martin

I'm surprised that more people haven't scratched their heads and asked about the undercranked (12 fps) tunnel sequence. That's almost a mile tunnel which was bored through the middle of a mountain. Just to see what the camera could do, we decided to strap it onto one of my Cine Saddles on the roof of my Xterra, and drive through the tunnel with it recording. The setup I chose was 5k/2:1 aspect ratio/project frame rate of 29.97/Varispeed 12 fps/ISO 1600.

No HDRx was used. I wanted to see how the sensor would do in such conditions. The tunnel has no lights. The only light in the tunnel was the headlights of my Xterra.

On opening that raw file in RedCine X that night we were way happy to not only find that the shot worked - but that we had great detail all along the walls and ceiling of the tunnel. Remember - no HDRx. If we got that much detail without HDRx, its safe to say that we'd have gotten even more using HDRx.

Yes, Pam's full name is spelled with three "a" letters - and unusual spelling for the name, which usually ends with "ela".

 

[Steve Gibby]

I hope the scarlet dynamic range is not to far from this! HDRx™™ will be so amazing I don't know where to start! The barn shot keeps popping up in my head!

I think the capabilities of Scarlet, and the quality of footage that will be shot with the camera, will be stunning. Just a guess...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Why don't you enable the 1080p download on Vimeo? People are whining about the quality so let them see the uncompressed 1080p.

We may do that on Vimeo, or we may host it ourselves. The downside of doing it on Vimeo is we then have to put up with lots of postings from young 5D trolls and FUDmasters - who bought a 5D, shot a little with it, and now they seem to think they're all world class DP's and footage critics. To them I'd simply quote an ancient Chinese proverb: "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".

The footage is my copyright, the edited piece is a joint copyright of myself and Ketch. We'll be happy to enable a 1080p download. That may be via Vimeo, but will probably be via the Ketch Rossi Studios web site when we can free up the bandwidth.

We're happy to help everyone here - but we never had to do what we've done - still photos, BTS videos, frames form the camera, and this last edited video - we all donated our time and did it simply to benefit this community.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

The downside of doing it on Vimeo is we then have to put up with lots of postings from young 5D trolls and FUDmasters - who bought a 5D, shot a little with it, and now they seem to think they're all world class DP's and footage critics. To them I'd simply quote an ancient Chinese proverb: "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".

Steve, it is possible to change your Vimeo settings so that no one can comment on your videos except your "personal contacts". You can do this for each uploaded video individually in the Settings.

I have to say that I appreciate all your efforts, along with Ketch's, Dino's, Michael's, Joseph's, Pamala's, your colorists, etc. tremendously. Your willingness to share your knowledge and experience as you evaluate this new technology is priceless to someone like me who will not be able to get my hands on an Epic for a long, long time. Thank you for your hard work and dedication!!

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

We may do that on Vimeo, or we may host it ourselves. The downside of doing it on Vimeo is we then have to put up with lots of postings from young 5D trolls and FUDmasters - who bought a 5D, shot a little with it, and now they seem to think they're all world class DP's and footage critics. To them I'd simply quote an ancient Chinese proverb: "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".

Steve, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm afraid you would have the same problem posting the 1080p version. Some "5D world class DP" (rotfl) would download it, and post his comments on some forum/blog no matter what. You just cannot avoid these things.

We're happy to help everyone here - but we never had to do what we've done - still photos, BTS videos, frames form the camera, and this last edited video - we all donated out time and did it simply to benefit this community.

And I would say the majority of people here or elsewhere appreciate that, because no one should take these things for granted (besides, as I wrote before, at least to me those Zion canyon shots look pretty awesome).
But, the moment you put the footage up, unfortunately you should expect that kind of BS. I think a big part of it is anxiety from some who really would love to put their hands on Epic right now, some it's frustration from those who will NEVER get anywhere near it, and some of it comes from ignorance. It's the internet. :biggrin:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Steve, it is possible to change your Vimeo settings so that no one can comment on your videos except your "personal contacts". You can do this for each uploaded video individually in the Settings.

I have to say that I appreciate all your efforts, along with Ketch's, Dino's, Michael's, Joseph's, Pamala's, your colorists, etc. tremendously. Your willingness to share your knowledge and experience as you evaluate this new technology is priceless to someone like me who will not be able to get my hands on an Epic for a long, long time. Thank you for your hard work and dedication!!

Thanks Tom

Already changed the setting and deleted all the trolls comments

1080p Download will only be enable upon's Steve's authorization, as He said, this was a collaborative effort,
but the footage was shot entirely By him, and He holds the rights to it

If and when Steve says yes, all I have left to do is push a Button

 

[Steve Gibby]

Steve, it is possible to change your Vimeo settings so that no one can comment on your videos except your "personal contacts". You can do this for each uploaded video individually in the Settings.

I have to say that I appreciate all your efforts, along with Ketch's, Dino's, Michael's, Joseph's, Pamala's, your colorists, etc. tremendously. Your willingness to share your knowledge and experience as you evaluate this new technology is priceless to someone like me who will not be able to get my hands on an Epic for a long, long time. Thank you for your hard work and dedication!!

Hmmm...we'll check out the possibilities with the Vimeo downloads

Thank you for those very kind words for our crew and my good friend Dino. Its posts like yours that really remind us that our hard work has been appreciated. If the roles were reversed, I'm sure you would step up for the community and do what we've been trying to do here. In fact, I feel that almost any members here on Red User would do the same if they were in our position. That's what really make Red User a solid community of people who share when given the chance!

Don't assume you won't get your hands on an Epic for a long, long, time. You should plan to come to NAB in April. Red will have a booth there, with lots of cameras, and be showing Epic footage in 4k. My ranch is just over 2 hours north of Vegas and I'll definitely be at NAB. If I have a Epic with me there, I'd be happy to let you shoot some footage with it.

 

[David Dennis]

Doesn't 1080P video also get heavily compressed by Vimeo, and thus not give the quality that we're all looking for? I assumed that was why Steve didn't want to show off 1080P through Vimeo, but through Ketch's site where you have full control over the resolution and quality.

Have you shoulder mounted it yet, and if so what is needed to do so and how does it feel? I'm really curious about how much the additional accessories needed for shoulder mount would cost on an Epic ... any details on that?

D

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Thank you for those very kind words for our crew and my good friend Dino. Its posts like yours that really remind us that our hard work has been appreciated. If the roles were reversed, I'm sure you would step up for the community and do what we've been trying to do here. In fact, I feel that almost any members here on Red User would do the same if they were in our position. That's what really make Red User a solid community of people who share when given the chance!

Don't assume you won't get your hands on an Epic for a long, long, time. You should plan to come to NAB in April. Red will have a booth there, with lots of cameras, and be showing Epic footage in 4k. My ranch is just over 2 hours north of Vegas and I'll definitely be at NAB. If I have a Epic with me there, I'd be happy to let you shoot some footage with it.

Steve, I'm going to try to make it to NAB if I can fit it into my teaching schedule. It's been a few years since I've been out there (I went to over 20 NAB's in a row, then burned out on it and stopped going). I'd love to take you up on that offer to get some hands-on Epic time and seeing footage at 4k is a high priority. We're about the same age, so I clearly remember the time before the Internet, when new product information wasn't readily available at the click of a mouse, or a quick Google search. It makes me truly appreciate how much effort you all have put into to sharing with those of us who are eagerly watching over your shoulders. Thanks again, you guys rock!

 

[Steve Gibby]

I don't know what it is about being anonymous on the Internet that makes people think they can say crap they would never say to someone's face. I call it "keyboard courage".

Yup...everyone is an expert and gets real brave behind a keyboard

The key to learning for all of us is this: "The more we learn, the more we should realize we don't know!". Once we feel we have all the answers we simply stop learning - and our competitors in this industry who keep learning then pass us by. This is a dynamic industry, in that equipment, technology, techniques, and possibilities evolve very rapidly. Even after a long career in this industry I get out of bed each day expecting to learn a lot of new things that day. If I don't, I'm way disappointed and redouble my efforts the next day. Nobody has all the answers - and nobody ever will. Its too big of a task. But we all need to stay with it each day - and be teachable - then what we don't know, we just need to know how and where we can find it quickly. That's where boards like Red User (and many others) come in way handy.

Hopefully these emerging 5D "DP's" with "know it all" attitudes, will at some point get a handle on the principles outlined in my paragraph above. It will go a long way toward helping them survive and grow in this industry. This is an industry where someone's attitude toward others and toward knowledgeable veterans either makes or breaks a newbie's career. It's a big, but very small, industry. Word travels fast about people with cocky attitudes and those who don't show respect for the industry veterans. Smart newcomers give respect and are teachable - or they simply won't last in this industry.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Doesn't 1080P video also get heavily compressed by Vimeo, and thus not give the quality that we're all looking for? I assumed that was why Steve didn't want to show off 1080P through Vimeo, but through Ketch's site where you have full control over the resolution and quality.

Have you shoulder mounted it yet, and if so what is needed to do so and how does it feel? I'm really curious about how much the additional accessories needed for shoulder mount would cost on an Epic ... any details on that?

D

Very true Dennis. That's why we're evaluating our options for the 1080p download.

I wanted badly to shoulder mount Epic M8 last week here. The new Red shoulder mount system wasn't ready to ship yet, so that wasn't an option. Several months ago I remember briefly trying out a prototype of that Red shoulder mount with a dummy Epic on it. It was really well designed, balanced way well on my shoulder, and I was even able to walk around the room hands free with it on my shoulder. I'll look forward to getting one of those when they're ready and putting it into use

We had an ET Mantis here last week, and I intended to put Epic M8 on it too - but we simply ran out of time to do that. I was one of the prototype testers for the Mantis, and have used one extensively with my Red One cameras. I really like the Mantis.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Doesn't 1080P video also get heavily compressed by Vimeo, and thus not give the quality that we're all looking for? I assumed that was why Steve didn't want to show off 1080P through Vimeo, but through Ketch's site where you have full control over the resolution and quality.
D

Correct David,

even the 1080p gets compressed upon upload, as it is the Vimeo that has their settings to save Bandwidth, which compression is applied,
and even so I was surprised to see that they use Amazon S3, this also explain the compression algorithms, they
need to save on that Bandwidth

A solution is in the works, working very hard on a Re-Build for KETCH ROSSi STUDiOS
and having our own Server will allow for a very Large capacity, and avoiding Bottlenecking and the crashing of our site
again and again during the pick time when a videos first goes live and ton of Visitors upload all at once.

We are looking forward for this permanent solution with our site so to provide our visitors with a greater visual experience

Hung in there... or here

Steve, Ketch, can’t express gratitude for your work, thank you and thank you to your team.

Thanks Andrew

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you Andrew...

You're right on that. We'll work on posting some more samples.

Each shot sequence I shot was calculated to push the camera - in other words to challenge the sensor with high contrast
/high detail scenes (Zion National Park), dark scenes (tunnel), and light/dark/detail scenes (snow scenes). We didn't set out to create a masterpiece - but simply to push the camera's capabilities for what I mentioned, in a variety of frame rates.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

what was the speed of the lens which you used to capture the tunnel shot?

my favorite shot is the last one, where the boarder claps his hands, and you can see detail in the snow crystals...not many cameras will still show that kind of detail when you downrez, those details usually just look like diffusion or blobby.

thanks for posting the footage. my only wish to see "something different" would be to see human close-ups - some eyes (for sharpness and facial detail) and some skin tones - everyone was all bundled up tight and wearing googles!

as tests of DR, motion handling, and lowlight, these serve us very well. thanks, team!