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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Let's Talk Epic Rentals! ....

Tim Whitcomb said:
Well despite another comment on here - would you agree Steve, that CAMERA PRICE has a direct correlation to rental pricing? sure seems evident here... and as Alexa will be more than EPIC, I can almost guarantee our lone camera house will price EPIC less than his beloved ALEXA... even though the EPIC now has DTE by recording off the 1080P output...

why beloved? because the Arri brand lets them overcharge... RED brand doesnt. YET
(mostly due to all the low balling R1 owner ops who had no business being an owner op)
fortunately the market killed most of those dudes and dudettes. So mostly the pro owner ops remain.
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It does have some relation, although perhaps not as much as it used to. From a rental house perspective, the cost of adding a camera like the Alexa is obviously higher so they have to take that into account when they plan out how many rentals until they can start making money on it. Name matters too. Arri has a long history. People equate it to quality. Quality translates to higher rate. Doesn't mean that RED products are any less valid camera choice, but perception and track record enter the equation.

Other variables to consider. Listed rate is not always the rate you pay. There's 3 day weeks, accessories that get thrown in, package deals, customer loyalty deals, and on and on.

I believe Epic will command a very fair rental rate with a bit of a premium at the beginning. And if rates fall back to earth quickly, I think owner/ops can still make good rates by having well put together packages, with a nice selection of accessories and lenses. I know when I was renting my camera out one of the things people liked was that it was well maintained and used quality accessories such as the ones from companies like ET, Monstercine, etc. There are many ways to provide value and get the rate you need to make it worth it.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
It does have some relation, although perhaps not as much as it used to. From a rental house perspective, the cost of adding a camera like the Alexa is obviously higher so they have to take that into account when they plan out how many rentals until they can start making money on it. Name matters too. Arri has a long history. People equate it to quality. Quality translates to higher rate. Doesn't mean that RED products are any less valid camera choice, but perception and track record enter the equation.

Other variables to consider. Listed rate is not always the rate you pay. There's 3 day weeks, accessories that get thrown in, package deals, customer loyalty deals, and on and on.

I believe Epic will command a very fair rental rate with a bit of a premium at the beginning. And if rates fall back to earth quickly, I think owner/ops can still make good rates by having well put together packages, with a nice selection of accessories and lenses. I know when I was renting my camera out one of the things people liked was that it was well maintained and used quality accessories such as the ones from companies like ET, Monstercine, etc. There are many ways to provide value and get the rate you need to make it worth it.
Click to expand...

Great post Steve, as usual -- I plan on accessorizing my Epic very nicely and keeping it very well maintained, and also putting together a package that has a lot of versatility -- even though, like you, I won't be renting to anyone and everyone :)
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Well despite another comment on here - would you agree Steve, that CAMERA PRICE has a direct correlation to rental pricing? sure seems evident here... and as Alexa will be more than EPIC, I can almost guarantee our lone camera house will price EPIC less than his beloved ALEXA... even though the EPIC now has DTE by recording off the 1080P output...

why beloved? because the Arri brand lets them overcharge... RED brand doesnt. YET
(mostly due to all the low balling R1 owner ops who had no business being an owner op)
fortunately the market killed most of those dudes and dudettes. So mostly the pro owner ops remain.
Click to expand...

Tim is right in that the market has generally been over supplied of Red Ones relative to actual demand for probably the last year, maybe more which has eroded rental rates. MX continues to ramp up to probably the same over supply eventually. Red's have enjoyed a high rental rate relative to its purchase price since day one, and the rates continue to come down towards where the pricing should probably be. Red has had little competition which has kept the rental rates artificially high thus far (IMHO), but Alexa, F3, AF-100, Epic, Scarlett, and whatever else is coming (in the 35mm space) will help find where the rates should be. Supply VS demand is definitly an important part of the equation for rental pricing (the x factor).

IF over/under supply (x) didn't factor in then purchase price is usually the main determining factor in where pricing falls in regard to a primary camera system as opposed to a specialty camera (like Phantom). Alexa is currently under-supplied and has a high demand so prices tend to be higher (then they will be), or low priced deals don't need to happen. When Epic begins to ship the same will happen with a higher rental rate, till supply catches up to demand.

When the supply meets the demand for both Alexa and Epic (and there isn't a glut of supply), then we will see where the pricing falls, but purchase price should be determiner, which would suggest the Alexa will require I higher rental price (to re-pay for its purchase price). But if the Alexa ends up sitting around after Epics are a plenty, then we could see an erosion of rental pricing for Alexa, and therefor sales. Who will want to buy an expensive camera if it takes twice as long to get it paid for? The Market tends to find its own rightful level and speaks louder then our strong opinions.

If Epic is that much more capable (at about half the purchase price) and the market agrees by high demand for Epic, then the rental market will adjust prices/supply as demand dictates.

All factors aside (supply/demand/capability) just purchase price this is where I think a basic camera kit for each camera should land (roughly).

Alexa 1400.
Epic 1000.
R-MX 600.

JMHO, We shall see.
 
I literally cant give away a red package right now.. I offered a full package to a production company for reallly really low.. so I could get the rental and the tech..

but they are still going with alexa. Im still DIT on the job, but all last week and this week have been ALEXA jobs..

Im almost thinking i need to go that route to make any kind of money on rentals:/
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
I literally cant give away a red package right now.. I offered a full package to a production company for reallly really low.. so I could get the rental and the tech..

but they are still going with alexa. Im still DIT on the job, but all last week and this week have been ALEXA jobs..

Im almost thinking i need to go that route to make any kind of money on rentals:/
Click to expand...

ZaK, the problem with that concept is.... if you order an Alexa today, and the wait period (I'm told) right now is 2-2.5 months. By mid April life could be very different then what you feel right now. There will be that many more Alexa's in the market place, F'3 will begin to deliver in February (they say), and were told Epics will be shipping by NAB and in large numbers.

So that demand you feel right now for Alexa, may be very different then... and you'd be into your banker for 80 G's at that point!

Its January..... pause, take a breath. If you had made an Alexa order 3-4 months ago, is different story. Today is a much different gamble given all the camera options about to hit the market in a similar space.
 
Zack, remember it's trendy to rent Alexa right now. When Epic hits production and gets out there in the marketplace, it will be trendy to rent that instead.

I've noticed over the last three years of doing this business, that there's a certain segment of the production population that shoot on whatever's trendy right now, mostly (it seems) to be seen as 'in' to their peers. So it went from Red One, to 5D MkII, to Red MX, to PL mount 7D, to Alexa, and soon.... to Epic.

The sad thing is, that segment of the population don't really seem to care all that much about image quality (at least as it pertains to the RECORDED image!! :lol: ). The segment that DOES care will understand that Red MX still meets or exceeds Alexa's image, let alone decimating the HDSLR ilk etc....

Hang in there. Epic's coming, and when it does, Alexa is going to seem rather last season compared to a smaller, higher FPS, 5K, 18+ stop, nuclear reactor in a matchbox (to paraphrase Jim).... :wink:

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul
 
I think part of the Alexa allure is the ProRes option. I have tons of RED post guys that hate the conversions and conversion times. But when all is said and done they love the RED footage.
 
I've definitely seen RED rental frequency drop since both the proliferation of Alexa AND the 7D / 5D. The latter which has a ridiculous rental to purchase price ratio. But There will be another good year when Epic comes out for the RED brand rental for sure. Certainly with all the major features now using it as seemingly the del facto standard - especially for 3D, meaning 2 cameras instead of just one (clever)... Maybe this will buy a year or even two of market leading and change in market perception.
 
the problem is.. there is a over saturation of RED ONES.. and there will be a ton of EPIC's as well.. trying to be a rental company is just not happening anymore.. the big guys have that market cornered and unless you have TONS of supplemental gear, variety of lenses, and a few extra camera bodys as a backup, renting is a pipe dream..

I would strongly sway people away from purchasing an epic with the mindset of renting it out and making all their money.. just not gunna happen.

DP's are buying RED's, ALEXA's, EPICS, as are production companies.. the need to outsource for gear is slowly fading..

with that said.. demanding high rental rates is a thing of the past. the first few guys to get their cameras 1-50 will make a nice profit and ROI.. but I imagine the cameras will be pumped out relatively quickly after that and rates will drop out.

if not.. and your sitting in the 500 + range and the cameras are slow to begin.. 1-500
then your pretty much EFF'd if you want any kind of ROI..

the way things have been moving.. the higher number guys dont really stand a chance unfortunately..

oddly enough my MX package has been getting more calls the last couple weeks than all year. the smaller internet based commercials are def calling up owner/operators..

and i highly doubt this market will move into the epic world.. its just not needed, and MX is more than what they need, but they are basically getting full packages for panasonic/canon rates..

Epic will be SIIICK.. but make sure you know what your getting yourself into.. and have a plan
 
Terry VerHaar said:
One thing to remember is that camera rental is, of course, a business; presumably with the motive of making a profit. There is obviously a supply and demand balance for any product, including the rental of cameras. And, for any business. there is competition and other marketplace factors.

One simple reason the Alexa might rent for more than Epic is that it costs more to purchase one. Competition can only push rental rates for the Alexa down so far. Once the pressure pushes it to where there is no longer a profit in renting it, there will be no incentive to offer it. On the Epic side, I can imagine the rental rates will be quite high early on, when supply is constrained, but once there are a lot of Epics in the market, rental houses would rather keep them working and can afford to drop prices lower than they can afford to drop the Alexa simply because they cost less to purchase. Of course, the balance of supply (which camera is more available) and demand (which camera is more desired) will tweak the equation as well.

Bottom line, it's all about ROI. But, in business, it is never simple to figure out ahead of time exactly how to maximize it. That's what makes it so much fun! :scared:
Click to expand...

agreed. Additionally, just because Alexa may not be able to compete (in price) as more epics are made available, I would still expect rental houses to offer it (at a loss in some cases) to secure bigger productions and larger packages. Loss leader marketing can be effective.

cool avatar btw.
 
Dave Weber said:
I think part of the Alexa allure is the ProRes option. I have tons of RED post guys that hate the conversions and conversion times.
Click to expand...

But you have to do conversion with Alexa too. Add a Rocket and they are about the same speed.

Shoot Prores on Alexa you want Log-C which looks terrible and editors don't want to deal with it. There are LUTs you can use in FCP, but they all require rendering. The companies say they don't but, the plug-ins drops quality to the point people don't want to look at it. So you have to render the LUT. And thats just for FCP.

If you want to cut in Avid a whole new set of hoops.

Red 4k Raw footage is just as easy for me to work with as Alexa 1080p Log-C Prores footage. But the Red is 4k and Raw and I can do WAY more with it.

Alexa does rock in DR though and it is a solid camera that just works.


Dusty
 
I think RED is the winning team, never the less, never underestimate Arri, they absolutely have to offer a 4k (or more) camera to stay in the game, and I am sure they have one (working) in their lab right now... I bet it will be expensive (good for us), and hopefully it will be out way after Epic ships. (even better for us) And for all I know, it might be even heavier than the Alexa...
 
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