Computer for Scarlet

[Gary Askham]

You seem to be trying to find the cheapest way to do something in an industry which is not cheap.

I think you need both. A Macbook Pro and a Mac Pro. Because you are talking about two separate jobs. An on-set DIT setup is different to an edit suite.

You need the laptop on set for transferring media - the 17" is the popular one to go with because it's the only one with the express card slot.

Then you need a Mac Pro for editing. A laptop (or an imac) is built differently to a Mac Pro. It is built for portability. It isn't designed to be switched on for 15 hours a day working away at processor and drive intensive operations. It hasn't got the same cooling as a Mac Pro. It doesn't have any kind of expandability. I'd say that if you're working on anything close to broadcast work you need at minimum - a recent Mac Pro, a Kona 3, 2x 23" computer displays, a calibrated 23" HD-SDI monitor, a mixer, a pair of speakers and a RAIDed hard drive.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

I think you need both. A Macbook Pro and a Mac Pro.

I agree: a laptop is needed on location. And you also need a computer for editing.

But I'd never choose Apple computers : you never know what kind of computer parts Apple uses in their computers.

You will end up in your Mac with OEM / noname parts, instead of choosing carefully very high-end components in the PC world (Gigabyte GPU's with proprietary cooling systems & military components, Asus Rampage motherboards, Corsair Dominator DDR3, ...).

With that kind of components, you have 5 years / 10 years / lifetime warranty. Don't even think to get that with Apple...

BBC massively switched in september '10 to CS5, so a FCP computer is not needed anymore.

 

[Liam Hall]

BBC massively switched in september '10 to CS5, so a FCP computer is not needed anymore.

Not a comment on CS5, which certainly looks good, but I don't know why everyone quotes the BBC as using this or that like it means anything significant. It doesn't. The BBC hasn't been at the cutting edge of technology since Marconi and Baird slugged it out over who had the better TV system.

Today, the BBC is a behemoth; outdated, outmoded and overrated. Try working there...

 

[Matt.Ryan]

Today, the BBC is a behemoth; outdated, outmoded and overrated. Try working there...

Hi Liam (and hi to the rest of the forum as it's my first post),

I can't speak to working for the BBC, but their cultural and journalistic output is, in my opinion, second to none. I really miss it living in mainland Europe. Britain will regret it if this Murdoch-influenced Tory government get their way and break it up into a commercial entity.

Back on topic, I'm currently using a new iMac quad core. I don't have hard numbers but I feel I get similar performance to a MacPro that I was using last year (a purely subjective stance). I have no scope to purchase my own Pro this year but I really really hope to put the iMac through its paces with Scarlet footage before the end of the summer!

Matt

 

[David Dennis]

Disclaimer: I do not yet have a RED camera and am not editing R3D files, but I have some money-saving tips that might still be worth considering.

If you want to look cool and write in the coffee shops, a Macbook Air would be much better than a MacBook Pro, because of the weight and bulk of the latter. I would consider getting the cheapest Air for writing and a desktop for editing. Of course you cannot edit anything on an Air - it's strictly for writing and jotting down ideas - but you are saving $1,000+ you can put into your main machine. Of course if you really want to save money, you could get the previous generation Air used - I've seen it around $500.

I absolutely loathe Windows with a passion, so I would never get a Windows machine even though they give you more power per dollar. My experience is that most Mac users, for all their grumbling, feel the same way.

Apple computers are much better designed than Windows machines, and Jonathan Ive's design team doesn't work for free. Also, I have noticed that if you try to compare Apples with machines of similar quality and specification, a lot of the price difference vanishes. The good news with PCs is that you can get a wider variety of computers at different price points. If you prefer Macs and are tempted by the better value of PCs, make sure you are comparing machines with the specifications you actually want to buy - a $699 machine won't do you any good with integrated graphics (much slower) and a low-resolution display.

I would seriously consider a used Mac Pro. Depreciation on all computer equipment is murderous and you can routinely get the last generation Mac Pro for about half what you'd pay for a new one. Even as the owner of a brand new 27" iMac, I can tell you that's probably the better deal for editing RED footage, because the option of being able to incrementally buy more internal disk space and a RED Rocket is compelling. You may want to budget to replace the hard drives on any used equipment you buy since people often sell machines close to the end of the hard drive's service life. But that's only about $100-150 even for a huge new drive.

The sweet spot on the used market is changing all the time, but remember this: Many people want far more for their machines than they are worth. Be very patient when looking for used equipment. Even though I tell you not to buy until Scarlet ships (see below), start looking today so you know what a good deal is. Otherwise you might wind up getting a quad core machine for more than you'd pay for a properly priced eight+ core.

In my experience, internal storage works far better than external. Save external drives for backups if you can (this is, of course, a huge win for the Mac Pro with its enormous disk capacity). Aside from RED Rocket, this is the most compelling reason to get a Mac Pro instead of an iMac with a similar processor.

Last time I looked, used RED Rockets were available on the "Battle Tested" section of the RED store for $3,000.

The 27" iMac is definitely the sweet spot in the Mac line in terms of value for money - you get a powerful computer and a gorgeous display, for less than what Apple charges for the cheapest Mac Pro alone. The main problem, of course, is that it won't upgrade as well to more disk, RED Rocket, etc. But if you have a budget of $2-3k and insist on buying new, the Mac Pro you get probably won't make you any happier than the iMac.

I bought my 27" iMac with Apple's SSD + hard drive package. It was a very expensive luxury to get the SSD. I really love being able to open applications almost instantly instead of having to wait around for interminable seconds, so I think for me the SSD has been worth it. But I have been disappointed by its speed in, for example, loading large Photoshop images. A big Photoshop image is no faster to load from a SSD than a spinning drive (I tried it on both). I would think that for all but the richest among us a SSD just is not cost-effective for R3D footage.

Apple's 27" monitor is stunning, but non-Apple monitors are significantly less expensive. Consider buying a dual 23" monitor setup on a Mac Pro - that will cost you about $400-500 instead of $1,000 for a single 27". You can get up to six monitors on a Mac Pro and of course they are getting cheaper every year.

Difficult as it is to do, I would suggest saving your pennies for your main machine as long as possible. If you have the itch to spend, scratch it by buying an Air and start writing. The longer you can hold off on your main machine, the more technology will advance and the better your editing experience is going to be.

With this combination of strategies, I think anyone budget-limited would be best advised buying a used Mac Pro off Craigslist or similar, and upgrading it with multiple monitors. That would be much cheaper than than a new machine but would give you, say, 2/3 of the value for 50% (or less) of the price.

Hope that helps.

D

 

[Michael Olsen]

An on-set DIT setup is different to an edit suite.

This is a good point, which brings up the issue of scale in terms of the production.

Are you going to be transferring or DITing for a single-cam Scarlet shoot in a studio? Or a run and gun documentary?

Or will it be a shoot with three or four Scarlets rolling at once?

Will media be limitless, or does the production staff need a realtime or faster than realtime turnaround of blank media?

And what will you be asked to do on set? Just "back it all up and make sure it's safe"? Or grade one-lights? Produce dailies for tomorrow? Or Produce dailies for 30 minutes after the shot? Transcode to DPX, ProRes444, etc?

Backup up to a G-RAID? Or another type of RAID? Or LTO? Simultaneously?

--

While easy to move around, the more one is asked to do on set, the less a laptop remains a viable option. In fact, the more one is asked to do, the less a standalone computer remains a viable option and a DIT cart becomes requisite.

 

[Nicole B]

I think you need both. A Macbook Pro and a Mac Pro. Because you are talking about two separate jobs. An on-set DIT setup is different to an edit suite.

You need the laptop on set for transferring media - the 17" is the popular one to go with because it's the only one with the express card slot.

With the new USB 3.0, you don't necessarily need to have it (Express card slot) anymore though. Or am I wrong?

 

[Michael Olsen]

Or am I wrong?

Real tests that I've seen have shown USB 3.0 to be easily inferior to connections like E-SATA. Which, fortunately, the REDSTATION 1.8" provides.

Is this because of poor early implementation of the technology? Or is it because the technology just doesn't perform? I don't know. I assume we'll find out soon enough, though.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

I've been a Windows user since... forever, but about 6 months ago I purchased my first Mac; just a base line Macbook Pro. I work in IT, but am now employed as a software developer. My greatest passion however is user interface design (mainly for the web) - up there with video/cinema of course. I'm not a big fan of the Windows user interface and general user experience, in that I feel it is in dire need of a rethink. I bought my Mac primarily because I was getting a little sick of Windows, and was really eager to try something as different as possible.

My disappointed came when I found how conceptually similar Mac OS X is to Windows. While I won't deny that most things on a Mac are simpler, they're also "dumbified". OS X is missing a lot of power user features from it's interface, forcing you to hop into the command prompt more frequently. OS X seems to cater mostly to the lowest common denominator; Apple's anti-right-click philosophy is a good example of this. I find it takes me longer to perform most tasks under OS X, than it does on Windows. I can assure you though, OS X has many things I wish Windows had, but it works the other way around also.

I'm not happy with either operating system, and while Windows is nastier from an architectural and software design perspective (generally speaking), the user interface at least accommodates power users more effectively than OS X.

My point is, both operating systems average out to be reasonably equal in the end. Where one does poorly, the other usually does well. There's quite a few areas though where both do quite poorly. I'd therefore recommend you to go with whatever system suits your budget, and whatever system you're comfortable with. Windows certainly has better bang-for-buck performance wise, but the greater hardware flexibility can sometime's lead to problems, so you generally need a greater level of knowledge and experience if you're using Windows professionally.

I see Mac's as being more of an appliance, kind of like a DVD player. The software for the most part, is matched to the hardware. This fact alone usually leads to better software compatibility and reliability. You pay for it however with your wallet, and a lack of choice.

Personally, as much as Windows can annoy the crap out of me, I'd probably stick with it for editing. Adobe seem to have finally pulled their finger out over recent years. I build all my own computers, so the price difference between PC and Mac is even greater. I can also progressively upgrade my PC as significantly faster hardware becomes available; something which you can't do with a Mac Pro.

With all that said, if money is not a major concern, and your work is of a critical nature, then a Mac is in most cases the better choice, purely from a reliability perspective.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

OS X seems to cater mostly to the lowest common denominator; Apple's anti-right-click philosophy is a good example of this.
...

Hmmm...the right click on all my Macs works just fine. Maybe you have the wrong mouse? :001_huh:

I think it may be one of the few things stolen from Windows (but I'm not sure.)

 

[Michael Olsen]

Hmmm...the right click on all my Macs works just fine. Maybe you have the wrong mouse? :001_huh:

I think it may be one of the few things stolen from Windows (but I'm not sure.)

Haha, I'd have to agree here. As someone who owns a number of Macs and a number of PCs, I can say I right-click just about as much with both.

 

[Joseph Podlesnik]

Terry VerHaar[/B] Hmmm...the right click on all my Macs works just fine. Maybe you have the wrong mouse? :001_huh: I think it may be one of the few things stolen from Windows (but I'm not sure.)

Michael Olsen;705428]Haha, I'd have to agree here. As someone who owns a number of Macs and a number of PCs, I can say I right-click just about as much with both.

I've worked with both Mac and PC/Windows and I prefer PC. Am I wrong in assuming that I can only resize Mac windows using only the lower right corner? This makes me crazy. With Windows, I can resize windows with any side or corner. I thought that upgrading to Snow Leopard Mac OS would change this, but... ? Am I missing something?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I've worked with both Mac and PC/Windows and I prefer PC. Am I wrong in assuming that I can only resize Mac windows using only the lower right corner? This makes me crazy. With Windows, I can resize windows with any side or corner. I thought that upgrading to Snow Leopard Mac OS would change this, but... ? Am I missing something?

I guess it is all in what you are used to. Trying to help my wife with her miserable work PC drives me nuts. I guess if resizing a window the way that you are used to is a key element of the UI for you, you'd best stick with your PC. :001_huh: (Personally, it never bothers me.)

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Hmmm...the right click on all my Macs works just fine.

I'm not saying right-click doesn't work, but they don't put a right mouse button on their mice because they want to force application developers to make all the functionality of their applications available via a single mouse button. It's a good example of Mac's approach to user experience design, and one that I don't agree with for a number of reasons... which I won't go into as they're probably not relevant on this forum.

In case you're unaware, apple's magic mouse and touchpads on thier laptops do not come with right-click functionality enabled by default. One has to explicitly enable such functionality. It's simplicity at the cost of practicality.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

In case you're unaware, apple's magic mouse and touchpads on thier laptops do not come with right-click functionality enabled by default. One has to explicitly enable such functionality. It's simplicity at the cost of practicality.

Total bummer... must take a week or more to change preferences to match how you want to work. Such a total waste of time when it could be exactly the way you think it should be from the start...

Funny... i had no idea that was the way it was SUPPOSED to be. Like I said earlier, it that stuff is not to your liking, I am sure you would prefer to stick with a PC. :thumbup: I have used a Mac since 1984 so I guess I am just too ignorant to know how these things work. :biggrin5:

 

[Michael Olsen]

:jacked:

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Terry, the point I was making is not that the right-click doesn't work or that it's a pain to enable, because neither a true, but it serves as a good example of Apple's approach to designing the OS X user experience/interface. I'm all for simplicity, but never over practicality. Striking the right balance between minimalism/simplicity, and power/practicality is what good user experience design is all about, but it's also probably the most time consuming and difficult part, hence you often get products which are either too complex (not enough decisions were made for the user), or where simplicity has been achieved simply by throwing out practical features, or forcing the user down cumbersome paths of interaction.

Anyway, you either get what I'm saying or you don't. It's cool either way.

 

[Liam Hall]

Tom,

I get what you mean. But it's worth knowing that on a mac there's usually three or four ways to do anything in particular, though unlike a PC you don't need a degree in astro-physics to work out how.

Anyway, get a magic trackpad and you can right click to your heart's content...

 

[Ameer Azari]

Total bummer... must take a week or more to change preferences to match how you want to work. Such a total waste of time when it could be exactly the way you think it should be from the start...

Funny... i had no idea that was the way it was SUPPOSED to be. Like I said earlier, it that stuff is not to your liking, I am sure you would prefer to stick with a PC. :thumbup: I have used a Mac since 1984 so I guess I am just too ignorant to know how these things work. :biggrin5:

ZING!

 

[David Dennis]

It is easy to enable right click with the Magic Mouse, but if you don't know the trick, it's frustrating until you do. And I'm actually not sure how it works now with the trackpad on the MacBook Pro, which I think he has. So Mac users, have some sympathy for this guy - it gets you there a lot better than disdain.

Ironically enough, he said he was sad the Mac was not more unique and then complained about a difference, so I guess you really can't win.

He does acknowledge a critical point, that Macs are more reliable than PCs, much easier to get running and maintain. For those of us who are not lifetime PC fans, that's a pretty important difference well worth noting.

D