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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

More SSD questions $$$$$

Originally Posted by Michael Hastings
Where has it been finalized that there would a charge for the epics ssd side module? It was my understanding that the ssd is the standard and CF module is no more (except as a future option - think still shooters with lots of cfs), and that Jim hasn't decided if or what the add'l charge would be. If you look at the red station modules both cf and ssd are $250 so add'l hardware cost should be minimal and presumable no more than $250 at most since the entire separate ssd unit is $250 retail - the side plate is otherwise essentially the same with the LCD connectors, rec switch, etc. so once you decide to go in that direction in volume costs should be almost the same.
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The Side SSD has more to it. I believe it has a lemo connector and possible an on off switch, which both drive up the price.
 
David Battistella said:
This helps me make sense of a lot of things and also helps me understand why SSD makes sense as the viable recording option.

Can we still shoot 4K on EPIC or does that mean it crops or scales?

David
Click to expand...

4k will be a crop on Epic but it'll be the same FOV as RED One M/MX.
 
#1: Not true for Epic. 5k is now a higher data rate and you have to drop below REDcode 28(RC 10:1) for the 5k on 16GB cards. Since most people are recording at higher than redcode 28, 16GB cards won't be very useful. Even if they could record fast enough to do Redcode 42 (RC 7.5:1), the run times would under 4 minutes.

At 5k 2:1 and REDcode 5:1 (which will likely be what most features shoot with), a 64GB SSD will be about 12-13 minutes.

#2: I think we'll see RC 5:1 become the norm for most productions based on the feedback we've gotten.

#3: True and that doesn't change the cost and performance advantages over 16GB cards especially considering their use on Epic.

#4: Agreed. If you're buying Epic and expect data rates go down, that doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this information. It's what we need to make informed decisions. Seems the 128 G SSD's may be the sweet spot for 5K recording.
 
Deanan said:
4k will be a crop on Epic but it'll be the same FOV as RED One M/MX.
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Ok. Now, it's making complete sense. Using the full 5K means more data so the need for SSD.

I need to forget what I know about the R1-MX and those data rates because it kind goes out the window when you add another 1000 pixels wide.

And cropping to 4K on EPIC will be like 3K on R1 (slightly grainier I am guessing) so 5K is going to be the 95% of the time mode.

When you explain it this way, then the cost increase to move the technology forward makes complete sense. It's a small hit but worth it.

David
 
will there be a ssd module, ssd cards and ssd station bundle?

and i guess a high contrast forrest wide shot with HDRx, 5k and 5:1 ratio is superb.
this is exactly the scenario where you can reach the limits of redcode 42.
so i am cool with 6GB per minute.
3TB drives are getting cheaper every day
 
David Battistella said:
And cropping to 4K on EPIC will be like 3K on R1 (slightly grainier I am guessing) so 5K is going to be the 95% of the time mode.
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I don't think this is true. Remember, this is the same sensor. 4K on EPIC will be the same as 4K on R1. That said, 5K will be an improvement in resolution, and through downsampling, an improvement in noise, so you're probably right about 5K being the 95% mode.
 
Bob Rudis said:
The Side SSD has more to it. I believe it has a lemo connector and possible an on off switch, which both drive up the price.
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Wouldn't those have been on the side CF that was originally part of the Epic-X. And even if not, would a Lemo and an on/off switch suggest a $1500 addition?

PS: to further clarify, please remember I'm talking about the Epic-X R1 Tradein/upgrade package which was to be a complete, workable package - initially with a side CF module which had (at least-maybe more, I don't have the list in front of me) an EVF or monitor LEMO and a record switch.

The regular Epic was shown as brain only - and $28K at that time, and ALL modules separate/additional.
 
D Fuller said:
I don't think this is true. Remember, this is the same sensor. 4K on EPIC will be the same as 4K on R1. That said, 5K will be an improvement in resolution, and through downsampling, an improvement in noise, so you're probably right about 5K being the 95% mode.
Click to expand...

I think we will see a visual grain difference between 5K and 4K on EPIC even though it is the same sensor, EPIC's "higher" processing power and newer components (compared to the R1MX) will (i think) yield much cleaner images.



David
 
David Battistella said:
Ok. Now, it's making complete sense. Using the full 5K means more data so the need for SSD.

I need to forget what I know about the R1-MX and those data rates because it kind goes out the window when you add another 1000 pixels wide.

And cropping to 4K on EPIC will be like 3K on R1 (slightly grainier I am guessing) so 5K is going to be the 95% of the time mode.

When you explain it this way, then the cost increase to move the technology forward makes complete sense. It's a small hit but worth it.

David
Click to expand...

I'd expect 4K on the Epic to be very similar to the current MX at the same data rates. If you choose less compression, I'd expect the images to be better.

The idea to switch from the 28/36/42 labeling system to ratios makes much more sense. Remember that something like RC28 on the Epic would result in compression roughly like RC~20 on the RED ONE. The differences would be a pain to make sense of. I expect we'll see a RED ONE build [build 32?] that will change from RCXX values to RC X:1 values.

More resolution, less compression, faster media speeds... everything's good. When people move from something like an HVX to a RED ONE, they're blown away by "how much data" the camera generates. The RED ONE generates miniscule amounts of data for what it produces. Jumping to the Epic will shock many people in a similar manner. This is a whole new beast.
 
David, Michael,
Yeah I thought too that SSD had become the included default module, but Jarred recently made it clear that it's a different sort of "default"...you have to pay for it http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=682610&postcount=99

Not ordering one would be like declining to buy the 'default' seats in a car :-)
 
So if SSD's are specialized for the camera and RED's own SSD's are the only ones to work with the module... then how is this different from working with a Red Ram?
Working as a DIT I don't think the capacity is the issue, you often offload way before a mag is full and if CF-cards gets faster and with more capacity I think it's enough for regular production. Is it the speed it generates? Are SSD's needed for the redcode 100, 250 fps, 5K? If so, why SSD's for Red Ones?
 
Shawn Nelson said:
David, Michael,
Yeah I thought too that SSD had become the included default module, but Jarred recently made it clear that it's a different sort of "default"...you have to pay for it http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=682610&postcount=99

Not ordering one would be like declining to buy the 'default' seats in a car :-)
Click to expand...

quote from that post:

The Brain is the default part of the Brain. Just like on the Red One, the side recording module has always been extra.. be it CF or SSD.

Again, that has always been true of Epic, but I thought a side CF module was included in the Epic-X package?
 
Michael Hastings said:
but I thought a side CF module was included in the Epic-X package?
Click to expand...

So a great thing would be that we could modify our original EPIC PACKAGE to switch out different modules.

I'd want something that would do what the R1-MX does (sound recording) with SSD instead of CF and side handle and battery.

INSTEAD OF:

all the modules that come with and EPIC PACKAGE.

So maybe RED will give us a mix and patch option. since a cetain amount of modules are included with EPIC packages.

IE: I love the unti that TED is walking around with right now can anyone figure out how different that is than the stage 2 package?

David
 
David Battistella said:
I think we will see a visual grain difference between 5K and 4K on EPIC even though it is the same sensor, EPIC's "higher" processing power and newer components (compared to the R1MX) will (i think) yield much cleaner images.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but I think we're saying much the same thing with regards to 4K and 5K on EPIC. But comparing 4K on EPIC to 4K on R1 at the same compression, I would not expect to see any difference at all except for frame rates. The sensor is the same, the color science is the same, and the whole point of RAW is that no processing is done (so nothing to add noise). The sensor data is just compressed and written to the drive. Or SSD or whatever. If that's not the case, then all of us in Stage II have some re-thinking to do.
 
David,

Great points, but I think that the electrocics alone might change things a bit. As Deanan stated in this thread earlier, the field of view will be the same, but only RED knows what the EPIC 4K looks like compared to R1-MX 4K.

I'm sure they will intercut beautifully but you'd have to drop the EPIC down in resolution to match a R1 and you and I both know that no one is going to want to do that.

David
 
Brook Willard said:
The RED ONE generates miniscule amounts of data for what it produces.
Click to expand...

One only needs to recall DALSA to understand the how important REDCODE is.

Brook Willard said:
Jumping to the Epic will shock many people in a similar manner. This is a whole new beast.
Click to expand...

Agree. That picture is much more clear as a result of this thread.

Thanks Brook.

David
 
There are more differences between the two that will probably affect the image in the raw. Higher bitrates and more processingpower in the signalchain can/may/willgive us higher precission and even better precission in the lowlights than the curr ent Red MX. I fulle expect an added stop in the lowlights when I look at the Epic vs Alexa charts posted by RED. And from what I can see on the R1MX, I think that is totally achievable and makes a lot of sense.

I have noe doubt that Epic and R1MX will intercut well. But I'd very surprised if they didn't "act, perform and feel" like two totally different cameras, even though they share the sensor...

Just my 2.5

Cheers!
G
 
Gunleik Groven said:
There are more differences between the two that will probably affect the image in the raw. Higher bitrates and more processingpower in the signalchain can/may/willgive us higher precission and even better precission in the lowlights than the curr ent Red MX. I fulle expect an added stop in the lowlights when I look at the Epic vs Alexa charts posted by RED. And from what I can see on the R1MX, I think that is totally achievable and makes a lot of sense.

I have noe doubt that Epic and R1MX will intercut well. But I'd very surprised if they didn't "act, perform and feel" like two totally different cameras, even though they share the sensor...

Just my 2.5

Cheers!
G
Click to expand...

Gunleik,
I understand why higher bitrates and the increase in S/N resulting from additional downsampling will improve Epic, but given the raw signal path, what would make them different if compression and resolution were the same? What am I missing?

In other words, looking at a 2-camera shoot where both cameras use settings within the R1MX range of capabilities, what do you think is going to make them different?
 
Shawn Nelson said:
David, Michael,
Yeah I thought too that SSD had become the included default module, but Jarred recently made it clear that it's a different sort of "default"...you have to pay for it http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=682610&postcount=99

Not ordering one would be like declining to buy the 'default' seats in a car :-)
Click to expand...

Not quite. If you were to buy the SSD module for the back, the side module would be truly optional. Just as you can use R1 with a drive and no CF mod, you could presumably use Epic with a rear SSD module and no side SSD.
 
OK.

Here it is:
from here:
http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=604817&postcount=1


Net price of $19,500 and comes with:
1x S35 MYSTERIUM-X brain with PL mount,
1x 5" LCD,
1x REDMOTE,
1x Side CF Module,
1x Module Adaptor,
1x Base I/O Module,
1x Pro Battery Module,
2x REDVOLT standard batteries
1x travel charger.

NOTE: Upgrades available for select monitoring options and modules. i.e 1x Base I/O Module can be upgraded to PRO I/O Module by paying price difference. Details as we get closer.
________________________________________________


So hopefully we can get a config that is more like the one that TED is walking around with for the 19.5K Stage 2 price tag. I would be much more interested in a smaller lightweight package instead of the module upon module thing that will be longer, bulkier and seems like it would be less ergonomic than the DSMC we have been looking at.

I'd rather leave all the modules for the rental houses and pick that stuff up as I need it depending on the shoot. The TED setup with just the sound I/O would be perfect, it seems and might come in about the same weight as the R1
 
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