Explanation of some DI terms

[Mike N]

Hello,

I've learned a lot reading on these boards but I keep bumping on to some industry specific terms like: off-line, on-line, conforming, finishing systems, editorial finishing.
I generally understand them but don't know exactly what they mean...so if you find the time to enlighten a fellow reduser...
thanks

 

[Greg M]

Offline is the process of cutting your project, generally this is at low resolution and the purpose is to finalize your edit

Online is the finishing phase where you work at full resolution

Conforming is rebuilding your offline edit in a finishing or color timing suite.

Today the difference between offline and online has blured, a lot of projects are off lined and finished on the same system. Traditionally these were very different processes.

 

[Jordan Livingston]

I would say that in the most general use of the terms; offline is "creative" editorial (often at lower resolution for convenience and system performance) and online is "technical" editorial (full-resolution: color correction, compositing, re-framing, etc.). Now, that is not to say that online editorial isn't a creative process as well... In most cases, it surely is!

Conforming is the process by which the offline media is replaced with it's online counterparts. Finishing might be an even broader term, but it can encompass the steps of final color correction, titling, transitions, and of course mastering or transcoding to the final deliverable format.

Hope this helps!

Happy Thanksgiving,

- Jordan

 

[Mike N]

Thanks for the answers guys.
So what would be the difference between a grading only software and a finishing software ? The finishinf software has all the components (including grading) built in ?
What can't a grading application do and a finishing one can ?
For example as far as I understand DaVinci is a grading only solution while in Scratch the grading in only a part of what it can do ?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

These days, the difference between offline and online is mainly over speed and quality... in theory, the online version uses the original picture elements and conforms them (matches them to the offline cut) at a fairly high resolution / low compression, for mastering purposes, whereas an offline copy can be quite compressed and low in resolution (to make editing easier, faster) if ultimately you will just be using the final EDL generated to conform the originals. Of course, some people don't shoot in formats that create really huge files and therefore can edit offline at full resolution so there really isn't an "online" step per se, just perhaps a final color-correction session.

The terms offline and online really go back to tape editing days when you had to go back to the original tapes after offline editing to assemble an edited master that was dubbed off of the original tapes, only one generation removed. Usually this meant that a lower-quality video format was used for the offline edit. You can read some history here about video editing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offline_editing

 

[M Most]

Thanks for the answers guys.
So what would be the difference between a grading only software and a finishing software ? The finishinf software has all the components (including grading) built in ?
What can't a grading application do and a finishing one can ?
For example as far as I understand DaVinci is a grading only solution while in Scratch the grading in only a part of what it can do ?

A grading system does color correction. A proper finishing system usually has a comprehensive toolset that does editing and conforming, some color work, titling, visual effects and cleanup work, reformatting for various deliverables, does it all at the highest resolution required, and can work with frame sequences easily. A good example of a grading system is, as you mention, DaVinci Resolve, or perhaps Autodesk Lustre or Filmlight's Baselight. Good examples of finishing systems would be Autodesk Smoke, Avid DS, and Quantel iQ (whose tools are also available in Pablo, which is basically an extended version of iQ). Scratch is somewhere in between, but I would not call Scratch a finishing system because it lacks serious visual effects and cleanup capabilities that the systems I just mentioned all possess.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Michael, et al, this somewhat of a highjack, but I have a related ?. At what point in the process do you consider the dynamic range of the final output medium? For example, FWIU, theatrical film projection has at most ten stops of dynamic range (is that accurate?).

So when dealing w/ Red or Alexa footage shots that contain 13 to 14 stops of DR, does this cause a conundrum when grading/finishing? And is this usually confronted during the grading stage or the finishing stage?

Thanks much as always .

 

[M Most]

Michael, et al, this somewhat of a highjack, but I have a related ?. At what point in the process do you consider the dynamic range of the final output medium? For example, FWIU, theatrical film projection has at most ten stops of dynamic range (is that accurate?).

So when dealing w/ Red or Alexa footage shots that contain 13 to 14 stops of DR, does this cause a conundrum when grading/finishing? And is this usually confronted during the grading stage or the finishing stage?

Thanks much as always .

I don't really understand the question. Technical "dynamic range" and practical, aesthetically pleasing and story appropriate images are two completely different things. Technical dynamic range is much more relevant to capture than to post production, because it determines what you can retain given a particular exposure. In post, you grade to a target deliverable format, and you then strive to make all other deliverables perceptually similar. So in a feature release, you grade for either film or digital projection, using proper calibrated viewing environments for those formats, and use lookup tables and trim passes to make your video and other deliverables look basically the same. For a television show, you grade on a video monitor that is considered to ba a proper representation of the "standard" (in most major facilities today, that usually means a 50 inch or larger plasma screen). What you see in any of these environments is what you judge by. The technical measurements of the display devices are whatever they are, and the numbers, quite frankly, are somewhat meaningless.

 

[Mike N]

A grading system does color correction. A proper finishing system usually has a comprehensive toolset that does editing and conforming, some color work, titling, visual effects and cleanup work, reformatting for various deliverables, does it all at the highest resolution required, and can work with frame sequences easily. A good example of a grading system is, as you mention, DaVinci Resolve, or perhaps Autodesk Lustre or Filmlight's Baselight. Good examples of finishing systems would be Autodesk Smoke, Avid DS, and Quantel iQ (whose tools are also available in Pablo, which is basically an extended version of iQ). Scratch is somewhere in between, but I would not call Scratch a finishing system because it lacks serious visual effects and cleanup capabilities that the systems I just mentioned all possess.

Visual effects in a finishing app would refer to compositing or is it something else ? And what do you mean by cleanup work ?
so a grading application can import all the formats that it supports but after I've done my color work I need to send the files somehow in the finishing application that will ultimately convert my files in whatever format I need for final display on my medium of choice ?
For example in Davinci after i have finished grading my footage (R3D files) what is the method by which i can transform the files into DPX? Well actually if I have separate applications and not a finishing app what is the standard method of getting files back and forth between them...? EDL,XML that sort of thing ?

thanks,
Mike

 

[David Mullen ASC]

You always want more dynamic range than the display medium, or else it's like shooting slide film, which has the same gamma as a positive print. You have no flexibility to adjust the image. You want a certain amount of "oversampling" of information because color-correction is partly the process of deciding what to keep and what to throw away, or when to compress contrast and when to expand it.

Also, unlike still photography, a movie is a series of images that have to have some visual continuity between them, images shot hours, days, even months apart... making it more necessary to be able to use color-correction tools to blend them into a sequence that feels all of one piece visually.

 

[M Most]

Visual effects in a finishing app would refer to compositing or is it something else ? And what do you mean by cleanup work ?
so a grading application can import all the formats that it supports but after I've done my color work I need to send the files somehow in the finishing application that will ultimately convert my files in whatever format I need for final display on my medium of choice ?
For example in Davinci after i have finished grading my footage (R3D files) what is the method by which i can transform the files into DPX? Well actually if I have separate applications and not a finishing app what is the standard method of getting files back and forth between them...? EDL,XML that sort of thing ?

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but by the questions you're asking, I think you really need to educate yourself a bit as to the basics of post production. Explaining how it all works requires a lot more time and space than we have here, not to mention that there's a big difference between what you as an individual using desktop tools on a personal computer can or would do, and what professional post facilities do, which is the world that I live in.

 

[jake blackstone]

As time goes by, the line separating offline, online or finishing systems as well as color grading becomes more blurred. Today many systems are capable of more, than one operation. For example, you can start and finish the whole project in Smoke, including color grading, compositing, titling etc. Or you could use FilmMaster to edit, grade, add few effects and basic compositing as well as the clean up. Today it basically comes down to economics and time. Majority of applications and stand alone systems are designed for a specific task. To do an offline or creative edit using very expensive systems, like Smoke or Pablo, where sometimes you'd need to spend days or weeks in order to finish the project doesn't make financial sense, as those systems can easily run into tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars. FCP or Avid would be the proper venue. Doing color grading for a feature would make more sense on a specialized platform, like Resolve or Baselight. It is an important aspect of post production process to select the right tools and talent. Sometimes, proliferation of software choices and wealth of available talent can be confusing, which can make this decision crucial in successfully bringing the project on time, on budget and at the best quality possible.

 

[Frank Cueto]

As time goes by, the line separating offline, online or finishing systems as well as color grading becomes more blurred. Today many systems are capable of more, than one operation. For example, you can start and finish the whole project in Smoke, including color grading, compositing, titling etc. Or you could use FilmMaster to edit, grade, do effects and basic compositing as well as the clean up. Today it basically comes down to economics and time. Majority of application and stand alone systems are designed for a specific task. To do an offline or creative edit using very expensive systems, like Smoke or Pablo, where sometimes you'd need to spend days or weeks in order to to finish the project doesn't make financial sense, as those systems can easily run into tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars. FCP or Avid would be the proper venue. Doing color grading for a feature would make more sense to do on a specialized platform, like Resolve or Baselight. It is an important aspect of post production process to select the right tools and talent. Sometimes, proliferation of software choices and wealth of available talent can be confusing, which can make this decision crucial.

Although it is true that the lines are being blurred technically speaking. I would rather have an expert in each field do his thing on his preferred piece of hardware/software. I sternly believe that to achieve really high end results you need high-end PEOPLE each one taking care of his area of expertise.

From this I can conclude that even though it is possible to do everything by one person in one suite, I reckon that the traditional way of working is going to be with us for a LONG time indeed.

Opinions???

 

[jake blackstone]

Although it is true that the lines are being blurred technically speaking. I would rather have an expert in each field do his thing on his preferred piece of hardware/software. I sternly believe that to achieve really high end results you need high-end PEOPLE each one taking care of his area of expertise.

From this I can conclude that even though it is possible to do everything by one person in one suite, I reckon that the traditional way of working is going to be with us for a LONG time indeed.

Opinions???

We were already discussing a similar subject here:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52130

 

[Mike N]

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but by the questions you're asking, I think you really need to educate yourself a bit as to the basics of post production. Explaining how it all works requires a lot more time and space than we have here, not to mention that there's a big difference between what you as an individual using desktop tools on a personal computer can or would do, and what professional post facilities do, which is the world that I live in.

Not at all and thanks for taking your time to answering my questions. I'm surely not expecting for anybody to teach me things that i have to find out by myself i was just curious about what the above mentioned terminology means it kept showing up and I knew that I would find the answers on reduser easily.
Speaking about education, can anybody point me in the right direction on finding more information about the subject and it's respective technology and workflows (books, websites etc.) actually getting my hands dirty with some software wouldn't hurt either i think...thoughts ?
Thanks.

 

[MichaelP]

Although it needs to be updated again to reflect some of the more faster changing parts of the postproduction workflow, it does make for a good read on all these terms you are hearing such as offline, online, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Postpro...62/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1290958225&sr=8-17

I feel that as long as the resolution, bit depth, and commensurate file sizes continue to increase, combined with fixed delivery schedules there will always be an offline/online and separation of tasks to meet those needs. Post production is getting more and more nonlinear as multiple persons can start their work in an overlapping schedule. This is where the importance of metadata, collaboration management, change management, and similar functions start becoming very important.

From a creative standpoint, and with my producer hat on, I want the best person for the job that I can afford. For example, I understand a lot of the technical issues associated with color grading such as LUT, environment, control, calibration, etc. but I do not do color correction even though I have the equipment needed to do so. I cannot meet my own needs of artistic expectations for the films I produce. I speak at a lot of films festivals, workshops etc. and that is always my rule for the indie filmmaker - "know and be honest with the limitations of your talents". Then fill the gaps with the best people you can find and afford.

Michael

 

[M Most]

I speak at a lot of films festivals, workshops etc. and that is always my rule for the indie filmmaker - "know and be honest with the limitations of your talents". Then fill the gaps with the best people you can find and afford.

:iagree:

That's some of the best advice I've seen, even if it seems like it's rarely heeded. I'm going to remember that line and use it....

 

[Frank Cueto]

:iagree:

That's some of the best advice I've seen, even if it seems like it's rarely heeded. I'm going to remember that line and use it....

Same here...

 

[Mike N]

Well I think i've been a little missunderstood. I'm asking all those questions because I'd really want to make this a full time job in the near future I am by no means trying to do all those things by myself as an independent filmmaker. I know too well that is a path to that doesn't bring anything good. :wink5:.