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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SSD: more $$$ Confusion ????

Jannard said:
Am I the only one up?

Jim
Click to expand...

Yep.

Sure enough, I went to bed early last night. Thanks for all of the responses Jim. It's very clear now and I understand that you have to work out pricing.


For the record, it all sounds fair and this is what I have learned in this thread please correct any incorrect information.

-SSD is faster and better and more reliable than CF.
-SSD allows for better, higher quality REDCODE (5:1) to be recorded.
-CF technology would not allow for the speed improvements and lower compression you can attain with SSD
-NEWER technology costs more but will go down over time.

-RED will consider integrating a CF reader into SSD module (but it will not record the best resolutions)
-EPIC will only record 1.8" SSD module on board the camera via a SIDE module (aprox. 2500.00) or a REAR (aprox. 1500.00) module.
-SSD was not the "standard' at time of EPIC deposit but EPIC is shipping with the SSD instead of the CF and it sounds like users may only have to eat the cost of the SSD media but not the reader (which seems fair since only RED makes the media).
-SSD media starts at about the price of a RED drive ($950) for (64GB instead of 640GB) 1/10th the storage capacity but with solid state reliability (which I and many users I am sure would prefer)
-Weight differential is miniscule.


I kept seeing all of these SSD references but with no concrete info. This thread is pretty concrete, I appreciate you answering the questions and I am sure other REDUSERs will too.



David
 
so with the mentioned speeds, current gen ssd still isn't capable of doing 2.5:1 compression mathematically lossless? Or did I miss something? If the current gen still isn't fast enough, what's in the pipeline for it? Just holding out until SSD's get faster or is RED home brewing something else to give us something mathematically lossless for heavy VFX work.
 
Jannard said:
The data rates in these SSDs is high. We have the exact same problem as with CF cards. Manufacturers specs don't match real performance so we had to pay a premium for guaranteed performance. Deanan has been pulling the remaining hairs out of his head working on this. It amazes all of us how loose the memory guys are with specs. Our customers don't need to worry about it... we do. But I can say that this is no easy trick. Deanan has the MB/sec. specs.

Jim
Click to expand...

If this is such a problem with the 1.8" SSDs, why not offer a module that will take standard 2.5" SATA II SSDs? Those are much more common and therefore much more subject to development and optimization. There are new ones coming out right now capable of upwards of 500MB/sec which, if my math is right, is somewhere on the order of 5k x 120fps at 6:1, give or take.

You said the camera tests the media and if it's too slow, it just doesn't work. So I don't see where the risk is. People just have to buy fast media if they want it to work.
 
Just a suggestion Jim, could you look at the Red Station form factor and maybe making a combined unit that could sit under a 17" MBP or be rack mounted.
If it it contained a 2.5", 1.8" SSD and CF Reader with multiple ports on the back of the unit and some form of battery/bus powered option for on set offload it would really help.

I am not sure if Red is working with Maxx Digital on the Mobile Rocket Raid but a modular unit like this with some form of battery for offload built into the Mobile Rocket Raid would be a winning combination.
I think it would become the main method of offload and secure backup on many shoots, especially for run and gun, indi, and documentary shoots.

Just a suggestion

Thanks
 
Tom.Wong said:
so with the mentioned speeds, current gen ssd still isn't capable of doing 2.5:1 compression mathematically lossless? Or did I miss something? If the current gen still isn't fast enough, what's in the pipeline for it? Just holding out until SSD's get faster or is RED home brewing something else to give us something mathematically lossless for heavy VFX work.
Click to expand...

Tom,

Do you remember a company called Dalsa? They did 4K uncompressed and had drives the size of a fridge on set to record the data. ARRI uses a codex recorder that pulls 2.5:1 but for a cost that will not be feasable for production.

Will 5:1 still be to compressed for heavey VFX that is mostly being done at 2K for the moment?

David
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
In a way I'm glad there were not a lot of people up when Jim posted. Very clean discussion with a lot of great information.

Good read...

Jay
Click to expand...

Agree. I wish every Ruser thread was more like this one.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Tom,

Do you remember a company called Dalsa? They did 4K uncompressed and had drives the size of a fridge on set to record the data. ARRI uses a codex recorder that pulls 2.5:1 but for a cost that will not be feasable for production.

Will 5:1 still be to compressed for heavey VFX that is mostly being done at 2K for the moment?

David
Click to expand...

a dp told me that alexa can record compressed arriraw to sxs cards.
but i couldnt find infos,
1. if its true
2. if so, what type of compression
3. which compression ratio
 
Jannard said:
Too early... we are likely to price the SSD module the same as the CF module, but you'll need to buy some media. You don't have to if you want to shoot 5K @ 24fps to CF cards. But that is about all the CF cards can do. Up the frame rate and you are looking for trouble.

Jim
Click to expand...

So, if the CF module was originally part of the Stage 2 program and the SSD module is going to be the same price as the CF module, then does that mean that the SSD module will now be included without a price increase for stage 2? So all we would have to buy is whatever media we need?
 
I've always felt the pain from doing VFX work on poorly compressed camera codecs...RED was the exception. RC28 @ 4K beat any other camera format I've worked with...yet we still have people that want 2.5:1 or uncompressed...I mean, short of a 2K dpx created from a 4K film scan, what else could match the R1 for sheer ease of keying/roto/compositing etc?

Maybe it speaks a lot about the level in my profession that I'm at but 5K 5:1 compression seems like plenty of headroom to me :)
 
Cüneyt Kaya said:
a dp told me that alexa can record compressed arriraw to sxs cards.
but i couldnt find infos,
1. if its true
2. if so, what type of compression
3. which compression ratio
Click to expand...

Untrue.
Arriraw is not implemented in the Alexa release firmware yet, and it's always uncompressed per Arris specs. You would need a Codex on-board or similar, that supports T-link/ArriRaw/uncompressed 12/14 bit for that to work when the new firmware is released.

What he might be trying to say is that you can record Log-C ProRES 4:4:4 onto SXS. This is not raw but debayered RGB (10 bit currently) It does look great though :-)
 
Jannard said:
People used to shoot REDCODE 28, which is about 10:1 compression. Then we moved to REDCODE 36, about 8:1 compression. Then to REDCODE 42 which is about 7.5:1. Each of these jumps chews up cards. Now we think the new "standard" will be 5:1. This is twice the data as the original RED ONE at any given resolution and frame rate. 5K is 60% more data than 4K. Then add in high frame rates and it is pretty easy to see that a CF card will choke, roll over and die. Good news is Moore's law.

Jim
Click to expand...

The thing that a LOT of folks are casually glossing over is the need for gobs of storage on their computer system. I've been using Redcode 36 exclusively for the past couple of years or so and it's a challenge with my 14TB of storage at that compression rate. Can't imagine what 5:1 is going to look like, storage-wise. In all your Epic planning, better be planning on some new RAIDs people...
 
Anders Holck said:
Untrue.
Arriraw is not implemented in the Alexa release firmware yet, and it's always uncompressed per Arris specs. You would need a Codex on-board or similar, that supports T-link/ArriRaw/uncompressed 12/14 bit for that to work when the new firmware is released.

What he might be trying to say is that you can record Log-C ProRES 4:4:4 onto SXS. This is not raw but debayered RGB (10 bit currently) It does look great though :-)
Click to expand...
ok, good to know, so redcode is still milestones ahead :)
 
Mark Phelan said:
The thing that a LOT of folks are casually glossing over is the need for gobs of storage on their computer system. I've been using Redcode 36 exclusively for the past couple of years or so and it's a challenge with my 14TB of storage at that compression rate. Can't imagine what 5:1 is going to look like, storage-wise. In all your Epic planning, better be planning on some new RAIDs people...
Click to expand...

This is is the truth. As Jim said though, thank goodness for Moore's Law.
 
SSD sounds great. Now I´m scratching my head which size to go for, on one hand i´d like peace of mind in studio situations where i just leave the RedRaid on and empty it 2 times a day and don´t need a DIT or Data Wrangler but on the other hand, when on location, i prefer CF Cards and have a constant transfer of files and a feedback from the Wrangler if everything is fine.

If i look at the different sizes of SSD Modules now, based on the RED i would take 4 x 64 GB mags and have a runtime of arround 20-25min per magazine which i like.

Talking in Epic specs which magazine would give me about 20min of recording in 5k 25fps 16:9 with a 5:1 compression ?

thanks
Manuel
 
Before every shoot everyone should be required to say a quick prayer to the REDCODE gods. . .
 
Mark Phelan said:
The thing that a LOT of folks are casually glossing over is the need for gobs of storage on their computer system. I've been using Redcode 36 exclusively for the past couple of years or so and it's a challenge with my 14TB of storage at that compression rate. Can't imagine what 5:1 is going to look like, storage-wise. In all your Epic planning, better be planning on some new RAIDs people...
Click to expand...

Get hot swappable drive bay. 1TB drives are the new floppy disk.
 
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