Extra $1000 (more or less) for HDRx on Scarlet?

[Scott Crawley]

I have noticed the same. I doubt the nature of the program has changed. I think what we are seeing, or rather not hearing, is the result of Jim's recent promise to keep status under wraps. There have been enough reports of cameras in the field; Fincher and the six prototypes, trips to see PJ etc.. But others have suggested that since these are prototypes, that this is a precursor to Tattoo. Jim however still hints that they are on track for delivery before year's end. My money is on the notion that Tattoo is wrapping up as we speak.

 

[David Rasberry]

I must say I voted no, both because of the extra cost and probably as we know red, the extra time it will take to 'upgrade' the system, though it might not be long. Also, I voted no because I thought a thing like this would be possible to upgrade to in the future. However if this extra feature includes a higher frame rate, say 100/120 fps at 5K and 200/250 fps at 2K on the S35 brain, then this would change the situation for me and make my answer into a yes instead. However this whole new modulairty system begs to make this an optional thing, if Red decides to make use of it in the Scarlet models.

Well you are not likely to get Epic for a Scarlet price.
Maybe Red should go back to a two camera line, 2/3" Scarlet and S35 Epic, with all the performance features common to both. Would they sell enough Epics to make up the volume difference if they lowered the price for an S35 brain back to the R1 level, with 2/3" running more like $5k for a brain?
The whole reason for Scarlet was to have a lower less expensive line with less processing power and performance vis a vis Epic.
2/3" requires much less processing power for the Epic performance specs compared to S35 5K, really only about 1/3rd as much. So if they maintain that level of processing in an S35, there have to be significant performance hits somewhere. 60fps vs 120fps, 12 bit vs 16 bit, no HDR vs HDR, etc. for a brain that is about 1/3rd the cost.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The nature of the tattoo program may have changed. there's a few people on here who've been suspiciously quiet for the past month or two.

no...

The tatto is of course not out, there's just some of our more prominent members that have become extremely busy other places...

 

[Scott Crawley]

no...

The tatto is of course not out, there's just some of our more prominent members that have become extremely busy other places...

Remember that Jim did say that the program would be scaled waaaayyy back to just a handful of folks. With all of the attention that they have been getting from the competition, I think it reasonable to speculate that Tattoo has been underway, but only with closely chaperoned prototypes... No "Tattoo" cameras left in possession of non Red employees.

I figure that you either believe Jim when he says that he is still resolved to deliver by the end of the year, or you believe that Tattoo is still ahead of them. One or the other, but I doubt it is practical to begin final testing in late Sept/early Oct. and still get units to market before Jan. 1.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

The main point is that almost whole Epic Tattoo camera is made in RED Lab, because of that is extremely expensive and has very limited number of already made units.


My estimate is that probably now they made about 5 Epic cameras, plus 5 more that are almost ready for Soderbergh's "Contagion" production and other 5 after that for tests with other productions.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

no...

The tatto is of course not out, there's just some of our more prominent members that have become extremely busy other places...

Come on, guys. Can we stop with this! Every week someone comes out and says something like this and we discuss it for 40 pages. Tattoo began long ago.

This was posted on 5-31-10

Correct... The Tattoo Program has already begun, Snake Oil, Lucky, Jackpot, Crackpot and Ghost are all Tattoo cameras that have been built in the last couple weeks. Several more are being assembled, and once Firmware V1.0 is ready, those new Tattoos will be delivered to the selected few that are in the Tattoo program.

 

[Gary Ploj]

I just wish they could announce the Scarlet schedule without adding extras to it...if it doesn't change the schedule, then Yes...if it does...no. Let me have the choice when it comes out.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Thanks Terry. I missed that confirmation entirely.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I just wish they could announce the Scarlet schedule without adding extras to it...if it doesn't change the schedule, then Yes...if it does...no. Let me have the choice when it comes out.

I am quite certain that there is not a soul in the world that knows the Scarlet schedule right now. With all the things on which it is reliant that still have to be dealt with, it cannot yet be known, no matter what the "extras" are or are not. Anything that anyone at RED would choose to share right now would just be a guess (however well informed it might be). And, as we have been told, RED is no longer willing to share guesses with us. It seems that we have, collectively, proven ourselves not to be mature enough to remember that they are just GUESSES. :sad:

 

[Tim Hole]

Tim, that is a beautiful example of why some of us are pushing so much for HDR. And it's not a rare scenario, especially in older buildings. Maybe this thread will stay open long enough for it to be informed by forthcoming Epic shots discussed in the Recon/HDR thread.

I understand the uneasiness people have towards it, its just that in this game we have to think about the long term. Having this feature would save so much time, effort and money in certain situations. I really hope it is implemented in some fashion for the scarlet.

I am not a big lens hunter and really the 2/3" is my perfect weapon for both effects work, and general shooting. The 2/3" is preferable for effects work in my opinion and having this will really boost my productivity...if I don't get HDR will you please at least give me frame overlay

 

[David Rasberry]

I understand the uneasiness people have towards it, its just that in this game we have to think about the long term. Having this feature would save so much time, effort and money in certain situations. I really hope it is implemented in some fashion for the scarlet.

I am not a big lens hunter and really the 2/3" is my perfect weapon for both effects work, and general shooting. The 2/3" is preferable for effects work in my opinion and having this will really boost my productivity...if I don't get HDR will you please at least give me frame overlay

It is going to be interesting to watch where all this goes.
2/3" (DC16) is my weapon of choice too. HDR would really solidify the market position for the little Scarlet. It would be my ideal 16mm film replacement camera.

 

[Aaron Shirley]

This is just some philosophical musing about the advent of motion HDR. Since video first set it's sights on emulating film, I'd say the major advances went something like this:

-non-linear editing (early 90's, AVID?)
-progressive (late 90's, Panasonic?)
-24fps (early 00's, Panasonic?)
-film like color (early 00's, Panasonic?)
-selective focus (late 00's, RED?)
-ultra high resolution (late 00's, RED?)
-film like information depth (late 00's, RED?)
-motion HDR (early 10's, RED?)

That's all there is to the quality of film, right? So Scarlet might have all of these but one? When I thought Scarlet wasn't going to have HDR, I was going to buy two and force it with a beam splitter. But, I might be able to buy one and have it built in? Yes please!

 

[Aaron Shirley]

At this point in this thread, I think the two biggest questions that Deanan and Jim haven't answered yet are:
-how much of a delay could the added boards mean for HDR on the Scarlet?
-could the HDR able-ing boards be added to a Scarlet after purchase?

 

[Danny Lingan]

I understand the uneasiness people have towards it, its just that in this game we have to think about the long term. Having this feature would save so much time, effort and money in certain situations. I really hope it is implemented in some fashion for the scarlet.

Well said. We could use a thread on some real-world examples of how much that HDR could help in saving shots, time and money, complete with photos. I think many don't really appreciate it for the creative and practical tool that it could be for them, especially with the smooth motion effect and potential effects tools in Red's flavors of HDR.

I was thinking of the possibilities for chiaroscuro with greater range and less pain in light control.

I am not a big lens hunter and really the 2/3" is my perfect weapon for both effects work, and general shooting. The 2/3" is preferable for effects work in my opinion and having this will really boost my productivity...if I don't get HDR will you please at least give me frame overlay

Why is 2/3" preferable to you [and preferable to what]?

The discussion about using the HDR specular highlights for tracking is interesting to me.

 

[David Rasberry]

Why is 2/3" preferable to you [and preferable to what]?

2/3" video format and 16mm film format are essentially the same size. For me at least is the sweet spot for a reasonable range of creative image control, and adequate depth of field for ease of focusing by eye, especially in low light conditions. Plus you have more compact fast optics, including wide range zooms of practical size and weight for hand held run and gun shooting without the need of constantly changing lenses.
In short it is a great format for general purpose motion work from docs to dramatic features. It is the most widely used broadcast production format in the world. I prefer it to both larger and smaller formats for a personal motion picture camera, but until Scarlet was announced it was rather expensive, with entry level HD cameras running in the $20k plus range. Too expensive for me at least for a serious hobby camera, and the really good ones are more like $40k and up. Scarlet is more like Bolex price range and high end prosumer video camera price range.

 

[Danny Lingan]

Great summation David, although I've been nervous with some focus pulling on a dark set with iris wide open and a lot of movement in depth. I had to live off DOF chart and taped marks. I think some people who haven't used the format will be surprised at the DOF possibilities.

* Another HDR advantage for some? MORE SHALLOW DOF, potentially. If you don't have to protect your highlights as much, you can open up the iris more and get more narrow DOF. This could use some before and after testing. Somebody point out if I'm wrong here, please.


What my question should have asked is why 16 was preferred for effects work by Tim. But I think I misinterpreted and he was just extolling the virtues of an all-around great format.

 

[Paul Fitzjohn]

For me looking to buy the 2/3" Fixed Scarlet, I really hope RED don't go with the extra $1000 for HDRx mode as it would mean they have finally priced me out of owning a RED altogether.

I am in the low/no budget film-making category and even though I think the RED ONE/EPIC pricing is amazing for the camera specs and nothing else comes even close, it doesn't help me personally to own one. The original Scarlet announcement (3K for $3k) made me very excited as finally, despite my budget limitations, there was a chance I could own a camera that would give me an amazing look and control over my images.

They almost lost me when the price turned out to be $4750 (still need to buy the recording media on top of that as well), but I've managed to rebudget sufficently to stretch to that although I'm sure there were many lost at this point. Another $1000 though and I'm out of here.

Do I think HDRx is absolutely amazing? Absolutely

Do I think $1000 for HDRx sounds like a bargain? Absolutely

Can I personally justify spending $5750 (+ media) on a camera system instead of other equipment (lighting, audio and a cheaper camera system)? Absolutely not!

If it can be done as a module or option then go for it, but otherwise my vote is definately a no.

Also as a UK buyer if the Scarlet doesn't get released this year, I would instantly be looking at a 2.5% price increase as VAT increases to 20% on 4th January.

 

[Tim Hole]

What my question should have asked is why 16 was preferred for effects work by Tim. But I think I misinterpreted and he was just extolling the virtues of an all-around great format.

What David said

But in respect to effects work...I can only talk from personal opinion but of the many aspects of effects cleanness of plate is what is important. Whether it is going out and shooting images for plate shots, gathering textures, keying etc...

All of what David mentioned in regards to shooting, as well as more DOF and less lens distortions and data management. All help with speed of tracking, compositing and computational speeds and cleaner plates/layers. If I am working in after effects with essentially 80 layers whether they are nested or proxie driven matters little its still hard work. With Scarlet (DC16) data means I can work with more solo'd layers and speed my workflow. Nuke is a little different in the way that it works and i've found it faster than after effects with larger amounts of information. Probably because it is node based but someone with a deeper understanding of both formats would probably be wiser than I, unfortunately I use Nuke less often than I would like. In an all round fashion Scarlet makes complete sense to me in what I do. If I ran a large effects house...I would probably still work with 2/3" actually...but would also have Epic for bigger stuff that would benefit from higher datarates and larger sensor.

But imagine a Scarlet with HDR...

Similarly the 2/3" scarlet will be perfect for 3D for the same reasons.

 

[David Rasberry]

For me looking to buy the 2/3" Fixed Scarlet, I really hope RED don't go with the extra $1000 for HDRx™ mode as it would mean they have finally priced me out of owning a RED altogether.

I am in the low/no budget film-making category and even though I think the RED ONE/EPIC pricing is amazing for the camera specs and nothing else comes even close, it doesn't help me personally to own one. The original Scarlet announcement (3K for $3k) made me very excited as finally, despite my budget limitations, there was a chance I could own a camera that would give me an amazing look and control over my images.

They almost lost me when the price turned out to be $4750 (still need to buy the recording media on top of that as well), but I've managed to rebudget sufficently to stretch to that although I'm sure there were many lost at this point. Another $1000 though and I'm out of here.

.

Maybe they could change the body design to accommodate the HDRx™ board set upgrade but offer it with or without? Or just offer a lower cost basic model fixed version in addition to the HDRx™ fixed and cinema models.

 

[Steve Das]

.. I think the two biggest questions that Deanan and Jim haven't answered yet are:
-how much of a delay could the added boards mean for HDR on the Scarlet?
-could the HDR able-ing boards be added to a Scarlet after purchase?

Yes..true..likely reason there hasn't been an answer
or more info. is that they are waiting on more input and or
estimates/guesstamites from the engineers on this one.