Major improvement... free as usual.

[Meryem Ersoz]

What negativity? Since when is concern about being able to actually use this stuff in a professional environment negativity? Who here has said one negative word about the prospect of improved images?

For the record - that comment was not targeted at you, Mike. I think your criticisms are constructive and intended in that direction.

RED's business model has relied on spraying their user base with product, receiving maximum feedback as quickly as possible from the broadest base of users, and making modifications as quickly as they can implement them. There are inherent issues with that kind of forward thinking in terms of backwards compatability. But I don't want that to change. It is the most interesting feature of this company.

Surely there must be a fairly simple way to bridge the quick-draw way RED does business with the needs of a more entrenched industry?

Lunch sounds like a good start. Would someone take Mike out and feed him, for pete's sake? It would be great to see that bridge get built from the inside out.

 

[C. Jagan Mohan]

Where are we?

Where are we?

Where this thread started? and where is it going? It is surprising how some blah...blahs.... will twist and turn the main subject altogether to different direction.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Back tot he workflow concerns.... no one is saying that RED should hold back their update waiting for third party to catch up....all I am hoping for is for RED to make sure those third party are aware that a code change is coming and that they may need to update their plugin. When we first got our MX we couldn't use it in our NLEs as all the footage had a green hue due to it using a new color science and third party not being up to date. We were forced to transcode everything in Redcine X. Not the end of the world, just a pain. It took forever for Adobe/Avid/Apple to finally support the new color science. When I asked the question back then what was the hold up, RED pointed fingers at the third companies, and the third party companies pointed fingers at RED...lol. All I am hoping for is there now a clear communication with the major players that's all. Other than that I am really excited about the new update!!!!

 

[Stuart English]

SDK

SDK

no one is saying that RED should hold back their update waiting for third party to catch up....all I am hoping for is for RED to make sure those third party are aware that a code change is coming and that they may need to update their plugin.

That is the process.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Seems to me the simple solution is to create a LUT using a properly calibrated REC709 monitor and load that in the camera for onset use. Voila, REC709.

Exactly. If that's what you want. And this will make a lot more sense with Epic as it will have multiple monitoring paths. On the RED One, there is one monitoring path, we can't have RAW View on the EVF and REC 709 on the LCD... So I really don't see the point of having a mode like this on the RED One when we have these limitations. With the single monitoring path, it becomes a mode to toggle into just for the benefit of someone who doesn't like RAW View or other exposure modes, which may not be as pretty to look at, but present tons more useful information than REC 709.

 

[Jamatido]

Once again, we have a new major improvement in image quality coming. Of course it will be N/C. Look for a new camera build and color science improvement the likes of Build 16, 20 and 30. It makes new (and old) footage even better. Improved DR, noise characteristics and color stability with high ISO. The power of RAW!

Jim

Wodrfullllll... Jim, only request is see the support happens fast on all NLEs asap.

 

[John Marchant]

...and now that we're back on track. Can I ask again, by 'old footage' are we meaning old MX footage, or all old footage including M sensor stuff?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

...and now that we're back on track. Can I ask again, by 'old footage' are we meaning old MX footage, or all old footage including M sensor stuff?

old means, if you have build 8 footage you can process that material with the new color science too

 

[Antoine Fabi]

I love this company for its #1 value, Loyalty.

A big thanks to Jim and all the team.

So much appreciated, every time

Cheers!

Antoine

 

[Deanan]

Back tot he workflow concerns.... no one is saying that RED should hold back their update waiting for third party to catch up....all I am hoping for is for RED to make sure those third party are aware that a code change is coming and that they may need to update their plugin. When we first got our MX we couldn't use it in our NLEs as all the footage had a green hue due to it using a new color science and third party not being up to date. We were forced to transcode everything in Redcine X. Not the end of the world, just a pain. It took forever for Adobe/Avid/Apple to finally support the new color science. When I asked the question back then what was the hold up, RED pointed fingers at the third companies, and the third party companies pointed fingers at RED...lol. All I am hoping for is there now a clear communication with the major players that's all. Other than that I am really excited about the new update!!!!

The MX supported SDK was sent out two weeks after upgrade was announced which was right about when the first batch of upgrades was done.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Thanks Deanan! I am sure things are different now anyway as Adobe and Avid realized that RED is indeed a major player in the industry...so I don't foresee them taking as long as before. :thumbsup:
Now Apple on the other hand......:violin:

 

[Michael Epple]

Wow. Everyone was real quick to jump on Mike as if he doesn't know anything about the business or even better, that he's lazy. Good job guys. I hope you feel better.

The reality of this type of open architecture is that people have to keep playing catchup with post and adjusting their workflow. Can people post their footage? Sure. The issue is that many people outside of this forum, which is actually more people than in the forum, form an idea that Red is a pain to post, even to the point where they believe that dealing with the 5D is easier. Do we as shooters want the best image quality possible? Of course. Do producers? Not necessarily, and they're the ones who most likely have the final say.

I want the Red to be very accessible, and reputation plays the biggest factor in that. Right now the biggest gripe I hear from industry professionals is the post workflow, not the lack of DR.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Soooo, let me get this straight:
Mike Most, who had his issues addressed by RED and Filmlight within 24 hours, decides to do the rest of the RedUser community a favor by suggesting RED manage the timeline for updating firmware, color science, SDK, etc a bit differently to reduce frustration for the mass of RedUsers. Then he gets sniped. Really?

I also find it puzzling that people think the RedTeam is not already doing everything they can to speed the integration of improvements into 3rd party products like FCP et al. Really?

It seems that Mike's core point is that RED would protect their reputation in the higher end and reduce frustration across the entire user base by withholding some advancements until 3rd parties can catch up. He also addresses another point that seemed to get lost, which is the need for long form projects to maintain consistency over longer periods of time which include firmware and even hardware changes (MX). Perhaps at the end of the day solving that issue is his problem, that's what he gets paid for, etc - I get that, and, I imagine, so does he. Ultimately RED's way of doing business will influence the penetration rate of the RedOne into the "biz" where, it is sad to report, image quality often loses out to budget/time considerations. Even vaunted Arri is putting a ProRes module on the Alexa knowing that many projects will finish directly from the codec rather than pursue the last measure of image quality available from an ArriRAW based finish. Just sayin'

I am not sure that withholding anything is in RED's DNA (see Jim's post about how he just can't stop posting and refers to it facetiously as a personality disorder) and Deanan makes a good point about how problematic it would be to wait on 3rd parties. In terms of issues like the green tint when viewing early MX footy in FCP (presumably with an older Red node) Jim's note (post #24 in this thread) about the metadata taking care of "matching" the interpretation to the footy might be helpful. If Jim, Deanan, Stuart or anyone in the loop has read this far, more details about that note would be welcome as I don't know any specifics.

FWIW if you have a Red Rocket and the latest version of RedCineX you should be able to do a virtual telecine and transcode to a robust format for online. Yes, it would be best to just create one light offline media and finish from the r3ds on your box of choice (Baselight, Scratch, Pablo, DaVinci, etc) but there may be short periods of time when that is not possible. Annoying, sure, but not a show stopper and only for a short time.

BTW Assimilate (Scratch) had an engineering build that was MX savvy in my hands the day I picked up my MXed RedOne (I had one of the very first on the street) that worked flawlessly.

Cheers - #19

 

[Tim Morten]

The reality of this type of open architecture is that people have to keep playing catchup with post and adjusting their workflow. Can people post their footage? Sure. The issue is that many people outside of this forum, which is actually more people than in the forum, form an idea that Red is a pain to post, even to the point where they believe that dealing with the 5D is easier. Do we as shooters want the best image quality possible? Of course. Do producers? Not necessarily, and they're the ones who most likely have the final say.

I want the Red to be very accessible, and reputation plays the biggest factor in that. Right now the biggest gripe I hear from industry professionals is the post workflow, not the lack of DR.

There are definitely those who maintain that Red is hard to post. That said, what are some specific suggestions to help address this? It seems to me that Red is already very proactive, and that workflows are multiplying with Avid, Adobe, Assimilate, DaVinci, etc. Apple support is there but apparently lagging from what others have posted.

It seems like the possibilities are:
1. Red stop making improvements
2. Red wait for everyone to implement support before releasing improvements
3. Red stops providing hooks for 3rd party software and does it all themselves

None of these seem practical...

 

[Joe Carney]

Red's philosophy is to lead from the front, not push from behind. If they waited for 3rd parties, everyone would still be on build 17 if not lower.
Now if they would just get the Rocket out for Windows 7 users.....

 

[Deanan]

He also addresses another point that seemed to get lost, which is the need for long form projects to maintain consistency over longer periods of time which include firmware and even hardware changes (MX).

We already do that in the sdk and software such as Pablo exposes that control.

As far as timing, the firmware and RCX gets released so we can get feedback, then the feedback is used to finalize the SDK. There's very little tolerance by third parties for the SDK to be changing while it goes through that process. It's necessary no matter how much you wish to have the SDK done before the firmware. It's a process of feedback that happens because feedback makes things better.

 

[Deanan]

BTW Assimilate (Scratch) had an engineering build that was MX savvy in my hands the day I picked up my MXed RedOne (I had one of the very first on the street) that worked flawlessly.

Cheers - #19

And so did Quantel, Filmlight, etc.

 

[John Marchant]

old means, if you have build 8 footage you can process that material with the new color science too

I'm wary of making that assumption, logical as it seems. Jim and the rest of the guys have made a point of referring to the MX sensor in this announcement. I like to hear things from the horse's mouth and Red is about the only manufacturer I know where that's possible :beer:

I'd like to think this update improves my M footage

 

[Jannard]

Most's post is reasonable. We fight with this every day. We come up with advancements and realize that releasing them has to be done as a coordinated effort. Easier said than done. I think we are getting better at all this stuff. Just not perfect yet.

Jim

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Build 30 has been the biggest improvement, IMHO. Unfortunately it took some time for third parties to catch up. That's nothing to complain about because it is unavoidable.

We will experience that in the the near future many more times - naturally because digital cinema is in its infancy. In the first 3 years a kid learns 90% of its lifetime knowledge.

We should give Red at least another year to sort that out.

Gratefully,

Hans