Red1 vs HPX 500 / Sony EX3

[Eki Halkka]

How does the EX3 look when recorded uncompressed to a hard disk? Substantially better or just marginally?

-michael zaletel

I haven't done uncompressed EX3, but my educated guess is that it depends on the shot and what you do in post. Most shots should actually look visually very similar, indistinguishable even, if you don't try to press the footage too much in color correction. The differences arise with shots that have i.e.

- sharp high saturation color detail like neon signs etc. (a problem with 4:2:0 color sampling - the color edges will be slightly jaggy)

- have lot of small moving detail (like a forest full of moving leaves: a problem with long GOP compression)

- or when you push color correction too far (gradients may start to show the compression macroblocks etc.).

Like all things in life, how much of a show stopper one considers these to be is relative. Personally i'm in the "good to keep in mind, but i won't let it slow me down too much" school of thought. In most cases, the quality of EX1/EX3 is plenty good enough for the kind of work i do, for the output i do most of my work for (SD TV broadcast / web).

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Boy, am I frustrated. I just had a very lengthy response to this go away in a heartbeat.

Sorry to have lost the opportunity to read it.

Premiere CS5 is one system and what it does is grand.

Still you are working with 720p projects at 1/2 resolution.

Jack is working at 1/8 resolution.

That isn't what I am talking about, nor is it acceptable anymore. Once upon a time when on-line and off-line edits were common, now my clients want online all the time.

I need 1080p or 2K at full resolution and real time. That requirement is part of my workflow.

I get that with fairly old hardware if I am using XDCAM, ProRes or DVCPRO HD as my acquisition format. (All can run in real time on my dual G5- just barely.)

I think Premiere Pro CS5 can deliver that with RED with a new fast CUDA enabled video card. Its a huge step... but it isn't a real solution.

I need to be able to waltz into any post facility and drop my footage on a desk and have it running on any system of theirs in real time, without transcoding or needing special hardware.

We are pretty far from that. If others follow the path Adobe is blazing with CS5 then within 5 years the hardware and software we need will be common.

Until then and for a lot of work I have to deliver, RED is a 720p camera I must use an external HD-SDI recorder for.

Hence other cameras, with simpler workflows.

Its a compromise. I'm giving up the power and fidelity of RED for simpler and faster workflow.

I'm an uncompromising sort of guy, and its best to say I look forward to Epic, and Final Cut Studio 6 on that nice 64 core 5GHz CPU, 4 core 4GHz GPU system with LightPeak interconnects I'll have in 2015.

Of course those guys at RED have to keep overturning the apple cart, so I figure when everything is OK they'll drop that 28K monster of theirs on our heads.

 

[Uli Plank]

All cameras recoding massively compressed 8-bit files are not for you if you are aiming at film making and VFX. You need the latitude to play with in post if you are aiming at a consistent look.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Sorry to have lost the opportunity to read it.

Premiere CS5 is one system and what it does is grand.

Still you are working with 720p projects at 1/2 resolution.

Jack is working at 1/8 resolution.

That isn't what I am talking about, nor is it acceptable anymore. Once upon a time when on-line and off-line edits were common, now my clients want online all the time.

I need 1080p or 2K at full resolution and real time. That requirement is part of my workflow.

I get that with fairly old hardware if I am using XDCAM, ProRes or DVCPRO HD as my acquisition format. (All can run in real time on my dual G5- just barely.)

I think Premiere Pro CS5 can deliver that with RED with a new fast CUDA enabled video card. Its a huge step... but it isn't a real solution.

I need to be able to waltz into any post facility and drop my footage on a desk and have it running on any system of theirs in real time, without transcoding or needing special hardware.

We are pretty far from that. If others follow the path Adobe is blazing with CS5 then within 5 years the hardware and software we need will be common.

Until then and for a lot of work I have to deliver, RED is a 720p camera I must use an external HD-SDI recorder for.

Hence other cameras, with simpler workflows.

Its a compromise. I'm giving up the power and fidelity of RED for simpler and faster workflow.

I'm an uncompromising sort of guy, and its best to say I look forward to Epic, and Final Cut Studio 6 on that nice 64 core 5GHz CPU, 4 core 4GHz GPU system with LightPeak interconnects I'll have in 2015.

Of course those guys at RED have to keep overturning the apple cart, so I figure when everything is OK they'll drop that 28K monster of theirs on our heads.

I understand where you are coming from. There is a tradeoff though. The formats you mentioned are easier on those systems because they are good, but compromised codecs. The tradeoff is speed vs quality. For many applications, those formats are fine. With RED, it takes more processing but the quality is far less compromised. For a lot of shops, the workflows that exist for RED right now are certainly within their grasp. Even a RED Rocket system is not that expensive when we compare it to systems a few years ago. I feel some of this has been resistance from post houses. A lot of editors were down on RED for a while. All they heard about were problems and they didn't want their necks on the line. Understandable. But now real solutions are available, and many more are emerging, so at some point this is on the post community to step up and embrace what RED is doing. RAW, file-based post production isn't going away. Adobe recognizes that. They understand that metadata will be a huge part of the post process and they are trying to implement solutions that address the needs of their customers now and into the future. Avid is too.

R3D workflows will get easier. They have to. Technology will catch up. GPUs will get more powerful.

Right now, you can create a very good RED workflow. Is it a free lunch, no. But it doesn't have to be off the charts expensive either. It just takes a willingness to research, test, and implement. If a small shop like mine can do that, so can others. Will there be some stumbling blocks? Maybe. I remember some bumpy roads for P2 at the beginning as well.

My final thought on this. I don't recommend RED for every job. I love RED, but I'm realistic. I know there will be times when it won't be right for a certain job based on a lot of parameters. Ergonomics, workflow, etc. This is part of producing as we all know. Pick the tools that get the job done to the best of your ability and on budget. So, hopefully everyone gets that I'm not saying RED is the end all be all. I just take issue with the statement that RED workflow sucks. Too general a statement and doesn't help move things forward.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

All cameras recoding massively compressed 8-bit files are not for you if you are aiming at film making and VFX. You need the latitude to play with in post if you are aiming at a consistent look.

I have to disagree.

I prefer 10 bit recording. I prefer 4:2:2. I prefer RED if available.

That said, I've shot VFX heavy series episodes on DVCPRO HD and XDCAM EX. I've shot a series spec pilot on a Canon 7D.

All are 8 bit codecs.

DVCPRO HD is 4:2:2, but XDCAM and the Canon 7D are 4:2:0

We have accomplished a tremendous number of effects on all these codecs. I shot two full days on a green screen stage with the 7D, and that stuff keys well.

Don't believe that you can't get a good look or do visual effects with these codecs. You can. The limit is the talent, not the camera or codec.

Could I have turned in better work had I shot those shows with RED? Well I did shoot one episode on RED. It was better, but it wasn't night and day.

RED, or any other camera can not grant you success.

The limitation on these shows isn't the camera, but rather what we put in front of the camera. If you have an unevenly lit green screen with wrinkles, its going to be uneven and hard to key regardless of what codec you use. Conversely if its a nice evenly lit green screen, then it will be relatively easy to key, regardless of the codec in play.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Steve,

We seem to basically agree on the facts.

RED is a hard codec to deal with, but its worth it, provided you have the tools and talent to throw at it.

These other codecs are easier to work with, for various reasons. I'd argue that the ProRes 4:4:4:4 coming out of an Alexa isn't compromised much if at all compared with RED footage.

It is far easier to work with though.

Its a free lunch essentially.

You get an awesome D-Cinema image from a top notch camera in a solid master quality codec that you can drop in the timeline of the most popular editing software on the planet- and you get immediate real-time performance on fairly common hardware.

I don't want to pooh pooh RED- there is a reason I am here after all! Still we need to be realistic, RED is growing and learning. The industry is right there struggling through this with RED.

In ten years what RED has brought to the table: 4K RAW images and processing, will be the standard. Everyone will be doing the same sort of thing.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Steve,

We seem to basically agree on the facts.

RED is a hard codec to deal with, but its worth it, provided you have the tools and talent to throw at it.

These other codecs are easier to work with, for various reasons. I'd argue that the ProRes 4:4:4:4 coming out of an Alexa isn't compromised much if at all compared with RED footage.

It is far easier to work with though.

Its a free lunch essentially.

You get an awesome D-Cinema image from a top notch camera in a solid master quality codec that you can drop in the timeline of the most popular editing software on the planet- and you get immediate real-time performance on fairly common hardware.

I don't want to pooh pooh RED- there is a reason I am here after all! Still we need to be realistic, RED is growing and learning. The industry is right there struggling through this with RED.

In ten years what RED has brought to the table: 4K RAW images and processing, will be the standard. Everyone will be doing the same sort of thing.

Hard to argue with the Alexa workflow at the moment. 15 minutes of ProRes 444 onto a 32GB SxS card is certainly quick into edit. However, your images are baked in at that point. So, if these are the files that will be edited and onlined, that's what you got unless you're going back to ArriRAW files. CS5 workflow for RED is as easy, but allows changing metadata if you want to and you can online from the R3Ds. But, that type of support isn't quite the same in that popular NLE from Apple which is the one you are referring to. So, you are correct that straight from camera, Alexa ProRes 444 option will have some advantages, most of them based on convenience and the most widespread support. Don't be surprised to see a ProRes 444 module with Epic.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Red footage is as simple as Shoot - Edit TODAY.

That's with the latest Mysterium-X footage using Redcolor/RedGamma colour science.

I'm using Adobe CS5 and getting 1/2 realtime playback on a $5,000 computer I built myself, online. No transcoding. Render once, at the end of your project.

It seems the only people still lambasting the difficulty of Red R3D workflow are those stuck in the Apple/Final Cut/ProRes paradigm (which is unfortunately too many people!).

The key to simple, online, up-to-10K R3D workflow (at budget prices no less) is Adobe CS5, a compatible Nvidia graphics card (I'm using a GTX285), a reasonably new Core i7 processor and motherboard and 12GB+ of RAM. To help with data throughput use an SSD or two but it's not essential. It doesn't even have to be a PC, CS5 runs equally well on Macs too.

Thing is, you have to take the Final Cut blinkers off which many aren't willing to do....

HTH

Paul

 

[Subhadip Sen]

It seems the only people still lambasting the difficulty of Red R3D workflow are those stuck in the Apple/Final Cut/ProRes paradigm (which is unfortunately too many people!).l

Absolutely. The Final Cut system has been falling behind by a lot for a while now. It may have been the best solution in 2006, but right now, it is rather obsolete. R3Ds work very well with the likes of PPro CS5, Vegas Pro (9.0d and above, that is where they support FLUT and the new color science) and Avid MC5. Both PPro and Vegas can run R3Ds in real time at lowered resolutions (1/8 for PPro, "Draft/Preview" for Vegas), on a dual core! Any modern $300 CPU is good enough, the Phenom II X6 or the Core i7 875K, for 1/2 realtime playback. What is terrifying is that debayering is not even GPU accelerated! Adobe CS5 is an exceptional package right now, they just need to broaden the GPU support.

Yes, it is as simple as shoot-drag/drop-edit. Of course, if you aren't in a hurry, there are endless possibilities with the RAW image.

 

[Eki Halkka]

Both PPro and Vegas can run R3Ds in real time at lowered resolutions (1/8 for PPro, "Draft/Preview" for Vegas), on a dual core!

I get "usable", though not full rate playback on my four year old laptop, from USB drive, with Vegas 9. As said, drag & drop & edit. It's not perfect, but good enough to edit on, if on a pinch.

 

[Eki Halkka]

The limitation on these shows isn't the camera, but rather what we put in front of the camera. If you have an unevenly lit green screen with wrinkles, its going to be uneven and hard to key regardless of what codec you use. Conversely if its a nice evenly lit green screen, then it will be relatively easy to key, regardless of the codec in play.

Case-in-point: I just did full day greenscreen shoot today... on HDV. I expect the post to be very easy, just like it's been dozens of times before on similar shoots. Just a few days ago i keyed some Red Mysterium X footage. It required quite a bit of work due to uneven lighting, including some roto by hand. In this case, i expect to get easier, and maybe even better results from the HDV footage than i did from Red...

...okay, i do admit i would have been in deep doodoo if that Red shoot was done on HDV - MX pretty much saved the day in that case, but you get the point ;-)

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Red footage is as simple as Shoot - Edit TODAY.

That's with the latest Mysterium-X footage using Redcolor/RedGamma colour science.

I'm using Adobe CS5 and getting 1/2 realtime playback on a $5,000 computer I built myself, online. No transcoding. Render once, at the end of your project.

I think you are missing the point entirely.

You are getting 1/2 realtime playback on a $5000 computer. One you custom assembled.

That isn't acceptable.

I just checked- I can get 1080p DVCPRO HD in realtime on the oldest MacBook. (The original core duo.. not the core 2 duo. Its four years old now.)

I'll start to relax about RED workflow when I can get full resolution realtime playback on a $2000 computer anyone can buy off the shelf using most any NLE you choose.

I'll say RED workflow is not an issue when a four year old laptop can play RED footage at full resolution in realtime without any regard to the NLE or playback software.

It will take longer with RED than with most codecs I think, and it will be worth every bit of everything we put into it.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I think 1/4 resolution is absolutely fine for editing, considering you would still get HD playback. Or, the same as a ProRes module off Alexa. And a modern $2000 computer can easily handle that. I am not sure about off-the-shelf thing, though. The problem lies in the "any NLE" bit. Final Cut simply is not good enough.

As Eki mentioned last page, R3Ds are editable on a four year old laptop on Vegas 9. I don't see why we should be so concerned about full resolution, considering there are almost no 4K displays available.

 

[Uli Plank]

OK, sit back and wait while others are making money with that crappy workflow…

IOW: Why do I need a truck to move a few tons when I can haul my shopping with a Toyota?

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

Me myself i even hope that it won't be possible to edit the files directly on a cheap notebook. This will even damage the market way more then some things have already done.

It seems over here everything is getting normalised to have free accesories not payed when you rent a system. It get's quiet difficult to make investments if everything will be able to do exactly the same as you , but only some months later. Everyone with a company tries to make the best investments, this includes good editing systems for production companies. How can we be safe if everyone throws everything on the market at 1/5 of the price it was some months before.

Some friends of me just bought a canon 550d for it's video function, so even your 5d and 7d isn't payed off anymore, because they can make their own films.

So what happens if the editing systems come done that way cheap , that our investments can't be payed of anymore, because everyone is able to do it without any hardware.

I'm very reasonable that this will become reality one day, and maby soonere then later, but I think that Red has to insure themselves to not develop software based on the lower class hardware there is on the market today.

They have done their very best to give us the redrocket cards to give us a sollution, and I see already people selling it, while it could still be used for a couple other applications then the cuda is doing with ppro. Even avid needs actually in some way the rocket.

 

[Eki Halkka]

because everyone is able to do it without any hardware.

That's the reality, today. I can edit a 4K project on my laptop, and also finish it at 4K, on the same laptop.

Sure, rendering the final output will be very, very slow, but the resulting file is technically just as good as the file coming out from the high end post production facility downtown.

The only real difference is in how much patience you need: real time VS. slow render, editing with fluid, full resolution playback VS. small resolution, slightly choppy proxy.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think 1/4 resolution is absolutely fine for editing, considering you would still get HD playback. Or, the same as a ProRes module off Alexa. And a modern $2000 computer can easily handle that. I am not sure about off-the-shelf thing, though. The problem lies in the "any NLE" bit. Final Cut simply is not good enough.

As Eki mentioned last page, R3Ds are editable on a four year old laptop on Vegas 9. I don't see why we should be so concerned about full resolution, considering there are almost no 4K displays available.

I apologize to all.

I don't mean full resolution, because you are all right 4K displays are a rarity.

1/2 resolution will suffice.

Not 1/4 resolution.

1/2 resolution is 1/2 the horizontal and 1/2 the vertical, giving 1/4 the total image pixels. (roughly 2K or 1080p image- depending on your camera setup.)

1/4 quarter resolution gives 1/16th the total image resolution, That's 1/4 HD (i.e. 960x540)

What I mean is full debayer. In my opinion the debayer level has a notable effect, and you always want to work in full debayer.

So... for finishing to 1080p or 2K, I'd like to see 1/2 resolution full debayer playback of multiple streams in realtime without rendering on a midrange edit system (between $2000 & $3000 for the computer itself), without any special hardware, using any NLE with a broad professional userbase, that means Avid and FCP in the current market climate.

(Note for this I am not considering the cost of dedicated video i/o hardware... I'm just talking about playback to the computer monitors.)

I'd like to see 1/2 resolution full debayer full framerate playback on low end laptops and economy desktops. I'd like it to be supported in most common media players. (i.e. VLC, Quicktime and Windows Media Player)

In other words the "dailies" playback application.

Once we have full CUDA acceleration of the generic RED Quicktime codec (which I think will take development effort from both Apple and RED) a lot of this will become automatic within the next two years as CUDA graphics becomes standard even on entry level hardware.

I think the newest Mac Mini has CUDA available on its graphics hardware, although it isn't supported by Adobe Mercury- I expect it will be supported by OpenCL and eventually will lend playback performance to the RED QT codec, although I don't expect that performance to meet my standards.

I expect the next generation of low end graphics processors will be able to support playback of 1/2 resolution 1/2 debayer in realtime, and the second generation out will be able to support single stream full debayer 1/2 resolution playback- i.e. what the GTX285 can offer today

OK, I'm talking techno future prediction, and thats irrelevant.

What I mean is that we don't have a "solved" workflow for these cameras. In order for it to be solved, the codecs and hardware needed must be ubiquitous and have moderate to high performance. The playback must work with native media files, and be commonly able to deliver full framerate full quality on relatively modest machines.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

OK, sit back and wait while others are making money with that crappy workflow…

IOW: Why do I need a truck to move a few tons when I can haul my shopping with a Toyota?

I don't mean to imply that there is no workable workflow.

I make money with RED workflow too

I only mean to point out that it takes a lot of expertise and hardware to get it right, and that's too difficult for general acceptance.

I have a number of clients that won't work with RED for these reasons. I'm hoping to put most of them onto Alexa until I get a RED with similar output capabilities (some RGB codec that plays almost everywhere and is master/online edit quality.)

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

That's the reality, today. I can edit a 4K project on my laptop, and also finish it at 4K, on the same laptop.

Sure, rendering the final output will be very, very slow, but the resulting file is technically just as good as the file coming out from the high end post production facility downtown.

The only real difference is in how much patience you need: real time VS. slow render, editing with fluid, full resolution playback VS. small resolution, slightly choppy proxy.

The point is that RED takes people back to the status quo from 1997.

That was a situation where people had such poor performance with NLE's that they continued to use linear tape to tape editing for most work.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I just checked- I can get 1080p DVCPRO HD in realtime on the oldest MacBook. (The original core duo.. not the core 2 duo. Its four years old now.)

Yes, but I can easily get half-res debayered RED using native R3d in CS5 and I personally like the look of 1/2 debayered REd over full quality 1080P DVCPRO HD. So, I guess it depends on personal taste too.

I'll start to relax about RED workflow when I can get full resolution realtime playback on a $2000 computer anyone can buy off the shelf using most any NLE you choose.

If one of the NLEs were to suddenly support the RED Rocket for real-time fully debayered RED editing, I would not be upset. In the meantime, I'm okay with 1/2 res editing. When I need to see a shot fully debayered in real-time, I switch over to Redcine-X and take a look. Most of the time, I don't need to do that. 1/2 res is plenty for editorial. In editorial, it's 90% story/content related for me. The other 10% is stuff like, is that shot in focus, does that need to be reframed, will this composite well, etc. You don't need full 4K to be able to tell a story.

I'll say RED workflow is not an issue when a four year old laptop can play RED footage at full resolution in realtime without any regard to the NLE or playback software.

Be careful what we wish for. When everyone can do it, then it really does come down to our talent and standing out amongst the crowd. Which is what it should be about anyway, but certainly becomes the primary way to get a decent wage because market saturation will certainly contribute to driving down the average wage. Regardless, I fall into the camp that says making the tools easier to use, means we focus less on technology and more on creativity and I think that is a good thing. I think it's good for our clients too.

It will take longer with RED than with most codecs I think, and it will be worth every bit of everything we put into it.

Project by project basis. Some of my RED jobs have been very easy, others more complex. Some of my P2 jobs have been easy, some more complex.