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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Bad reactions to DSLR comments on Reduser

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I was thinking about the camera today and what it means.

I was using a belt sander and thinking about how effective a tool it is. It has a plug and a switch and a pretty sturdy belt with a small knob to fine tune it.

A belt sander is a tool. I was thinking about what I really appreciate about ANY tool. It really comes down to what is easy to use and what makes my life easier. It it makes my life harder, well, then, I am the tool.

When I apply this to RED as a pure tool, I have to say it makes my life easier in most situations. I'd have to say that you have to define the job.

What JIm is saying (I think) is that they want to make the best digital cinema tool, so when you compare a pure Digital cinema tool to a stills camera that can capture video, then I am not sure he is all that wrong.

Before any job , like the belt sander job I had today, my first question is "what is the right tool, the best tool, for this job?" That should be the first quesiton any craftsman asks. Then, "what is the most appropriate tool for this job?".

Of course there are variables and there always will be. There will be pros and cons, but utimately, as a tool, the RED is far superior in a cinema environment. The DSLR is far superior in a stills enviroment.

Each does there primary thing best.

Each person makes their own compromises.

David
 
Ha you are right David. I mean sure you can use a cheaper small vibrating hand sander and for the most part it will get the job done. However, most professionals would rather use a larger more powerful belt sander for most aplications. (yes I know it's not the best metaphor but to me it makes sense haha)
 
OptiTek said:
Never in a million years are they going to make a product competing with RED- they are just not in this market- way too small.
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Though I agree with most of your post, I don't really agree with this last part.

When DSLRs turned into HDSLRs the collision course between RED and Canon became inevitable IMO.

Canon serves Pro still shooters. As those shooters add pro video to their arsenal Canon will continue to serve them.

That will lead towireless follow focus and facial recognition autofocus in their cameras, good sound and monitoring. It's just a matter of time. Optically, Canon is capable of making the best lenses on the planet. Is a Cine optimized lens really out of the question?

The rumor is the next Canon video camera will be based on the 7D chip. If that thing shoots a better codec than h.264 it'll be something to talk about.

I don't think Canon is going to be doing 100FPS at 4k for some years though. The EPIC will remain fairly unique. Scarlet may have some serious competition.
 
Well, I do think RED's official responses and statements from people like Jim have been overboard.

A while ago RED posted some tests of video shot on one of the Canon DSLRs. Tons of aliasing, moire and a good demonstration of their limited effective resolution.

That spoke volumes in and of itself, and every professional who was thinking about these tools took note.

The vast millions out there shooting a 7D don't care about the issues. For many its the very best cinema camera they've ever owned. (Actually, its the best cinema camera I've owned.) Its sort of a revolution for that reason.

A lot of professionals, like me, know the issues, but its a good tool for one reason or another.

Irrelevant.

If I'm RED, then I should be excited. These video DSLR's are just the DSMC concept in reverse. Canon, Panasonic et. al. have just proven that there is a market for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of S35 DSMC cameras with specs inferior to the 2/3" Scarlet interchangeable at the same planned price point.

Take the 2/3" DSMC, use an S35 size sensor instead and hold the rest of the specifications steady. Offer up a choice of mounts and modules, like they already plan for the various Scarlet and Epic camreas, and the DSLR video/cinema revolution dies where it stands to the tune of millions of profits for RED.

Want to really excite users? Throw in a 15-20Mpixel still mode.

The only essential key is that they turn on a dime and get this project not merely moving but flying.

That will keep RED at the head of the revolution, and above the fray.
 
OptiTek said:
Never in a million years are they going to make a product competing with RED- they are just not in this market- way too small. :
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Every commercial stills photographer in the world is going to be shooting motion pictures. How small a market is that?

Furthermore, you're betting against the inevitable march of technological progress.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
wrong market

wrong market

Leo Ticheli said:
Every commercial stills photographer in the world is going to be shooting motion pictures. How small a market is that?

Furthermore, you're betting against the inevitable march of technological progress.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
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They won't be shooting 5K 120FPS motion for imax (3D) release on a 25lbs (properly setup for a feature) $80K camera system- I'm pretty sure of that:beer:
Actually we seem to be forgetting the expensive part of film making: cast, location and then editing, marketing and distribution.
and I certainly think that it won't change any time soon. I don't think all the aspiring film makers will be given access to these resources. Camera dept seems to be losing it's significance.
 
I skipped HD, didn't like it before the R1, don't like it now. At least, in its long GOP form. Don't like cameras with fixed lenses much either, or missing XLRs of any kind, with massive macro blocks.

What did I do? Bought a canon 10D, an interval timer, and shot 3k raw timelapse, stop motion etc Lots. Actually, DSLRs do seem to break easy I find (after about 200,000 shots it seems, in my experience), and without ever being dropped, but anyway..

.. if I could have had a crappy long GOP mpeg coming at me through a Nikon Prime, recorded onto that 10D, of my choice, as an option.. I'd have used it for sure, that would have hands down beat the best digital video cameras i could have got at the time, with the money I had certainly. And it would have still been a huge compromise. I was starting to think 16mm film was the most cost effective technology for the images I wanted, but not practical for what i wanted to do with it. It wasn't better resolution I was holding out for, it was colour depth, and changeable lenses, with syncronised sound, with decent connection coming next on the list, but could hardly imagine a manufacturer giving me all those things at once, with higher data rates too! Not even Oliver Twist would have dared ask it seems.. wow, the memories..

You see, I'd already done a couple of cycles buying what I later considered inadequate SD technology, whilst any camera developments seemed very small and incremental, sometimes forward steps, sometimes backwards, or just irrelevant (ie mpeg recording to another differtent storage, ie disc, cf card etc , when the problem is the mpeg IMO)

Thank god I bought that DSLR, cos it helped stop me cracking, and maybe spending 4k on a slightly better solution, but not much better, and missing the super shallow depth of field. Probably for $1000 (haven't looked a prices recently) . I remember sitting on a local hill, shooting the vista with the 10d, and I remember looking at the raw images and thinking, when theres a digital movie camera that can capture images like this, I'll beg borrow and steal to get one. And thats what I did, because I really couldn't turn back, and I felt good. Not all my plans work out that well.

It was the SI-2K first caught my attention, Red came later, and seemed more for less. That said, the SI-2K post solutions nearly turned me last minute.

Things are getting better, a little faster it seems. Younger filmmakers may not have to bash their heads to get the basics together (ie, camera, lenses, audio connections, higher data rates, wide colour gamut, less money)
 
I've had a Red One for 2 years and love it to death. I bought a Ti2 (550D) a couple of weeks ago because it's so cheap, and I'm amazed by it!

Bring it everywhere and get really impressive vision and great stills.

But the cold truth is that it doesn't take much to trip it up.

I would be afraid to use on a long form project because it's difficult to know in advance which shots are going to completely fall apart, and when they fall they fall hard.

But if you have time to test, are flexible, and can benefit from the small form factor, it's a great tool.

Wouldn't sell my Red One and I'm already signed up for Epic Stage 2, but these HDSLR cameras have their place and do a great job if you use them right. Can't argue with results.
 
OptiTek said:
They won't be shooting 5K 120FPS motion for imax (3D) release on a 25lbs (properly setup for a feature) $80K camera system- I'm pretty sure of that:beer:
Click to expand...

I am personally most excited about the 5K handheld EPIC rig RED was touting at NAB. I'd be happiest when the bigger rigs start dissapearing. Old school, not the best school.

The 5K in that setup is what will make every stills guy want one, and RED are wise enough to understand that is the largest market, not the guys who want to build a big rig with 150 people around it. It's still only one camera underneath all the mess.

Many more stills guys than "cinematographers" so I might argue RED's market is the photgrapher MORE than the cinematographer.

Look at all the Mag covers being shot on RED. Best camera for emerging media.

David
 
I look forward into the near future thru a series of logical deductions that tell me technology is bringing great digital machinery
to everyone cheaply. Whether it is RED, DSLR or whatever it doesn't matter who. What matters is how to stand out.
It is then that I realize that the only thing that will be worth a damn is your reel.
 
$700 T1i

$700 T1i

My T1i weights about 1lb or less takes gorgeus 15mpix stills and lasts o... 5 hrs on a tiny battery. Why would I want a 30+k camera with a 6 lb prime hanging on it to do the same thing as far as still photography goes? oh and the $700 1 lb package includes a kit zoom lens...
IMO Epic is an incredible achievement in digital cinematography- no questions about it.
For stills- not so much.......:devil:
 
David Battistella said:
Look at all the Mag covers being shot on RED. Best camera for emerging media.

David
Click to expand...


Amen to that. Digital signage and event staging will drive high resolution motion picture demand ahead of entertainment. There were multiple examples of videowalls, seamless multi-projector setups and such at Infocomm last week with screen resolutions in excess of 10 megapixels. This should be a natural market for Red shooters.
Digital Projection was showing off a vertical format 3-projector seamless overlap rear projection display for high end signage apps using their new WXUXGA ( these acronyms are getting ridiculous) native 2560 x 1620 projectors.
 
OptiTek said:
My T1i weights about 1lb or less takes gorgeus 15mpix stills and lasts o... 5 hrs on a tiny battery. Why would I want a 30+k camera with a 6 lb prime hanging on it to do the same thing as far as still photography goes? oh and the $700 1 lb package includes a kit zoom lens...
IMO Epic is an incredible achievement in digital cinematography- no questions about it.
For stills- not so much.......:devil:
Click to expand...

What would you use if you had 20 minutes with a celebrity and a canon or Nikon mount with your EPIC?

Think professional here.

David
 
How many?

How many?

And how many of the photogs that own canons get 20 mins with a celebrity?:emote_hippie:
and how many of them need a 5K motion camera that will shoot footage good enough for theatrical? And how many will have access to editing bay? Colorist?
 
Dude,

HAve you noticed RC-X i cross platform and there is a little button that lets you pull a 58MB tiff in about 1 second.

I'm not going to be baited into your argumentiviness.

Fashion photography will be a BIG player with EPIC.


David
 
Let's. Move. On.

Let's. Move. On.

I'm so tired of this discussion I can't even believe it's still of interest to anyone. We all know what these cameras are and are not capable of. Let's move on.
 
Heh heh... I'm surprised that so many people are reading posts from Reduser! :-) Wow.

Clarification #1. I think that Canon should be embarrassed about pretending that line-skipping is good enough when they have the capability to do much more. I'm sure they will in the near future. Until then, they are delivering much less than they are capable of... which is one of the reasons I started this company. No one in this industry seems to move unless they are forced to.

Clarification #2. No shooting professional has to justify what equipment they use... only their results.

If people want to correctly point out our flaws as a company, they will only be joining my previous admissions. We have no idea what we are doing. We are always late.

On the other hand, I would bet that no company in any industry cares more about their customers than RED does. We have taught the industry about free upgrades, trade ins and customer service at 3am. We have set a new standard for direct communication with our customers, a standard that other companies are trying to figure out how to emulate.

I don't have any problem with someone pointing out that I have no idea what I am doing... I have said that all along. But it is curious that the industry is falling in line to "be like RED". All I can say is ... "don't do it. You are following the wrong guy." :-)

If these other websites are going to post my comments, I certainly hope they will post this one without edit.

BTW... we have taken a lesson from Apple. We will no longer discuss what we are doing until we are done.

Jim
 
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Jannard said:
I don't have any problem with someone pointing out that I have no idea what I am doing... I have said that all along.
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Hehe.

BTW... we have taken a lesson from Apple. We will no longer discuss what we are doing until we are done.
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Well, let me ask you this: will we still have an ability to suggest features, specs for new cameras, ideas for functions, etc? Being told 2 years in advance about a forthcoming camera I can do without, but I have always loved that we have the ability to throw out ideas here, and that sometimes, they actually seem to get adopted. Maybe some type of more robust "Suggestions & Ideas" forum?
 
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