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Zoom vs Prime question

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adcatalano

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I have been having trouble deciding on going with the 2/3 fixed or the 2/3 cinema. What would be the advantages/disadvantages of going with the fixed over the cinema? Is there really that much of quality loss going with a zoom lens? Has RED released the mm range of the fixed lens? The pictures of the fixed lens seem unusual, where is the focus ring?

Thank you for all your help.

p.s. Does anyone know if the 2/3 cinema will be released in a package like how the fixed is slated to (with all of the accessories)?
 
I'm not sure about the quality loss because none of us have first-hand experience with either the fixed lens or the mini Primes. RED has not yet released the focal length of the fixed lens (they did a while ago but have changed it since then). There is only one ring, which you can program to control either zoom, focus, or iris (multiple rings would have been great, but it would have made the lens much larger and probably more expensive too).

And no, the 2/3" interchangable will not be released as a package. If it was, a lot of people would probably be going for that instead of the fixed package.
 
knowing RED the quality loss won't be there as such...they wouldn't release a product like the fixed lens if it was going to be far less superior to the interchangable lens. The difference is that you have choices of lenes from every other company and the cost of manufacturing is probably less which makes it to some extent cheaper to offer it in the package it is in...although none of this is for certain...

Feb time will tell us much more hopefully with the prototypes or NAB time because the cameras are meant to be released around that time I think or maybe a bit after, not sure...everythings subject to change around here :)
 
The fixed should be smaller and more integrated. I've read that it should be considered an "EX1" killer, while the 2/3" cinema is more competitive with F900, F23, Viper, HPX3700 etc.Primes are almost always both faster and sharper than zooms.

The fixed zoom is t/2.6, while the primes are t/1.5. That's around 1 2/3 stop difference.

But Red primes are not the only reason you should buy into the interchangeable camera.

You can use a number of very fast HD zooms that are around f/1.4 (probably t/1.5-t/1.8) on the 2/3" Scarlet cinema.

Also you'll be able to use 16mm and Super16mm film lenses on the 2/3" Cinema.

Also, from an operation standpoint there is usually more rotation of the focus ring on primes- and that rotation is optimized for their focal length.

Zooms usually have shorter focus rotation, and more importantly that focus rotation has to serve all the focal lengths of the lens- so its a compromise.

Now, as a user you may be completely satisfied with the RED 2/3" fixed camera. Chances are if you haven't observed the difference between primes and zooms for yourself you won't be that critical of the lens on the fixed camera.

Speaking for myself the only advantage of the 2/3" fixed over the 2/3" cinema (interchangeable) is price. When you add it up, the included RED accessories are about $3200 (I haven't done the sum recently) That means that the camera itself, including a lens, is about the same price as a Canon 7D body only. That's darn attractive.

Frankly I am considering a couple of 2/3" fixed, and two 2/3" interchangeable brains. Later I can grab a Scarlet S35 or two, and swap the parts back and forth. (I'm not likely to need three cameras on any single shoot.)
 
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since the fixed lens isn't going to be sold as an interchangeable lens for the cinema package, what would you fine people recommend as an equivalent?
 
I am waiting to see how the plethora of 16mm zoom glass looks on the 2/3 cinema.

There is an ample amount of quality glass out there that should look pretty good. I am unsure of the resolving power, considering the sensor. But the fact that you can grab some nice older glass, for under two thousand bucks, should present more than enough test footage once these cameras are in hand.

If you have deeper pockets, then HD ENG glass or HD cinema glass should look good.

The options are out there, and depending on personal taste and desired look, the price spectrum is pretty wide.
 
Stephen Gibson said:
I am waiting to see how the plethora of 16mm zoom glass looks on the 2/3 cinema.

There is an ample amount of quality glass out there that should look pretty good. I am unsure of the resolving power, considering the sensor. But the fact that you can grab some nice older glass, for under two thousand bucks, should present more than enough test footage once these cameras are in hand.

If you have deeper pockets, then HD ENG glass or HD cinema glass should look good.

The options are out there, and depending on personal taste and desired look, the price spectrum is pretty wide.
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thanks for pointing me in the right direction. my only experience in interchangeable (video) lenses has been the canon XL mount.

i know it's hard to say w/o too many specs released, but what do you think would be most equivalent to the fixed lens?
 
I think people will prefer the fixed lens Scarlet if they shoot a lot on their own without a crew. If you have a crew, the mini primes could be the tipping point for the interchangeable lenses. I'm trying to confirm if the 8X fixed has the liquid lens stabilization system. If it doesn't affect the other lens characteristics, it could be the killer app for hand held situations.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I think people will prefer the fixed lens Scarlet if they shoot a lot on their own without a crew. If you have a crew, the mini primes could be the tipping point for the interchangeable lenses. I'm trying to confirm if the 8X fixed has the liquid lens stabilization system. If it doesn't affect the other lens characteristics, it could be the killer app for hand held situations.
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That's the situation I most find myself in. Most of what I do is solo, but I would love to have the flexibility of using primes when I have more time and money. I would love to have one fixed and one interchangeable.
 
mike machian said:
since the fixed lens isn't going to be sold as an interchangeable lens for the cinema package, what would you fine people recommend as an equivalent?
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Hmmm... We don't know the focal lengths of this lens just yet, but based on the other specs we do know, I'm not sure there is an equivalent. Or at least not at a price point in line with what RED is offering. Seriously, I would probably recommend buying a fixed lens scarlet just for the lens option alone. Need the zoom? Don't reach for a zoom lens in the kit, swap the brain. < $5K for the brain w/ full fly by wire electronic T2.6 8x zoom??? Buy it. It's a no-brainer.
 
I wish Red would sell basically the same fix zoom lens as an option in lens selection for the interchangeable because it sounds like a great lens.

This would make it possible to have the run and gun possibility of the fixed and the flexibility and upgradability of the Cinema interchangeable.

Best of both worlds right....

and it would give me the option of buying the zoom lens and using that for awhile and then as I make more money I can start collecting the primes i want.
 
William Scott said:
I wish Red would sell basically the same fix zoom lens as an option in lens selection for the interchangeable because it sounds like a great lens.

This would make it possible to have the run and gun possibility of the fixed and the flexibility and upgradability of the Cinema interchangeable.

Best of both worlds right....

and it would give me the option of buying the zoom lens and using that for awhile and then as I make more money I can start collecting the primes i want.
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i'm in the same boat, trying to come up with an affordable zoom option to build a do-it-all 2/3 cinema paired with a few mini-primes. there are so many decent photo zooms out there, unfortunately the dramatic chip-size difference will cause major crop-factor. there are some used S16 zooms that are reasonable (for my budget), but we'll have to wait and see how well they work with the Scarlet's chip (general consensus from more knowledgeable posters than myself is they'll work fine).

it seems logical that RED would try and come up with a "mini-zoom" option for the 2/3 cinema, but as others have said, the cost would likely be much higher than you may think, making it a somewhat pointle$$ option.
 
The obvious option for the budget conscious, yet quality sensitive 2/3 consumer is to buy the fixed package, and then a cinema brain with primes. Saves you a lot, plus the fixed zoom is the best option you will find for a zoom (electronic,wide to tele, custom to scarlet, balanced within brain). Because it is built into the brain, the whole thing will be better distributed weight and size wise. Thus when you want a zoom, just switch brains. Simple. Its like getting all of the modules for the cinema, but also the best zoom you can get for a grand and a half.
 
thanks Alex, that's a good point. although it's hard to rationalize purchasing a fixed kit AND a cinema brain w/mini primes, when you add it up, you're right. best configuration $$$-wise if you want to do it all. :thumbup1:
 
Buying a fixed kit and adding a cinema body with mini-primes would seem to be the most cost vs quality effective route to go. The best match for Scarlet cinema would be 16mm or s16mm zooms less than 10 years old if you want to match optical quality that the fixed lens will likely have. This means lenses in the $4k and up range used from a reputable dealer or starting at $16k or so new. Older 16mm zooms can be had for much less, but won't have the color contrast and saturation of newer optics. If Red did make a zoom for the Cinema model it would likely cost a good bit more than the fixed brain anyway.
 
i don't understand having to buy both cameras .. one fixed zoom AND an interchangeable for primes ?!?

does that not defeat the purpose for a modular camera system?

sounds like the exact opposite.

4750 for zoom
2750 for body
950 per prime
 
chrislancaster said:
i don't understand having to buy both cameras .. one fixed zoom AND an interchangeable for primes ?!?

does that not defeat the purpose for a modular camera system?

sounds like the exact opposite.

4750 for zoom
2750 for body
950 per prime
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the reasoning you're seeing above comes down to the fact that there's no great quality interchangeable-zoom for the 2/3 cinema that fits into the price structure many of us 2/3 buyers can afford.

as David stated above, a used S16 zoom in the same league as the lens on the 2/3 fixed will cost around $4k minimum. because of that, it's actually cheaper to buy a fixed kit (which comes with everything but a CF card or 2 to get rolling) and a 2/3 cinema brain + whatever mini primes you want and just switch all of the components between the brains for the desired set-up.

having said that, i still hope for the seemingly impossible; that is a RED mini-zoom in the $1k-2k range so i can have an all around single-brain package... but i'm not going to hold my breath :smile5:
 
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