Zacuto's "The great camera shootout 2011"

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I carry a Schneider DigiCon filter for specific situations (open midday sun with contrasty wardrobe and mixed skin tones for example), but would rather not have to "restore" the contrast during post the rest of the time. My guess is that Arri "fixes" the contrast in the decode before anyone sees the image so its mostly a free lunch from the users standpoint. Yes, I am sure they are giving something away but engineering is always filled with compromises and, however they are doing it, the Alexa makes beautiful images.

FWIW I think RED's approach of RAW high resolution with HDRx™ has much more potential and as the Epic matures (which it apparently is already doing during the current alpha program) it will exceed the empirical metrics like DR, S/N ratio, etc of the Alexa. That said, like Kodak vs Fuji, many DPs may select one or the other to make it simpler to get the specific look and feel they desire. Ultimately, I see this camera testing paradigm we all know and often criticize as becoming less relevant without looking much more deeply at the processing of the image in post (virtual telecine if you prefer).

Steve mentioned that they were looking at the ACES standard in some manner in dealing with the footage which is very exciting. As long as 10bit log DPX is the common target for comparison there is a fundamental bias built in. Not to get on a soapbox here, but with so many different topologies for acquiring images and so many ways to view them the best way I am aware of to make comparisons of reasonable validity is IIF/ACES - otherwise the inherent variables can very easily become the only thing being tested. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jannard]

The contrast filter on the OLPF is a very clever way of showing more DR. The only downside, other than in-camera processing... is a resolution hit that can't be recovered. The Alexa has less resolution than an F35. It seems fairly obvious that this is due to the filter. We can see no other reason.

Adding a contrast filter when you need it or want that look (as opposed to a permanent one) seems like a better solution to us. And taking a resolution hit at 4K or 5K is a lot less painful than one at 1080P.

Jim

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Over the years though I've found that most methods of contrast lowering (flashing, low-cons, DigiCons, etc.) only add maybe 1/3-stop more of true shadow detail, the rest is just lifted blacks, which once restored to black in post, just cancels most of the perceived improvement in shadow detail. So I wouldn't give too much credit to the low-con filter in the Alexa OLPF, I'm sure it's doing something to help DR but it's not adding another true stop of information, I would guess one-third to one-half of a stop would be the most optimistically.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Thanks for dropping in here, Steve. I'm excited to see what you all came up with - it sounds like you've definitely decided to take it to the next level and push even further with the original concept.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

We noticed it in the first shots we saw with a bright light in shot - it flared over a good proportion of the screen and we thought it a bit "different" to what we're used to...

Graeme

But wouldn't the Alexa then have Ultra-Con typical artifacts like "light flash strobing"? (imagine following a car past streetlights on a night street, the whole image would brighten as we passed them, or imagine panning from a frame where we can see a window with a view to daylight outdoors, from a framing where that view was not visible, the whole exposure would ramp).

Does the Alexa exhibit such artifacts? I have shot with it once, but my experience with that camera is limited.

We did notice that the Alexa images, using familiar lenses, were less sharp, even in 1080p, than Red MX. I felt it reduced the "3D pop", especially when shooting at, say f5.6 where DOF differences are subtle - it tended to make those nice subtle focus differences disappear somewhat. I have no real enthusiasm to shoot more Alexa now that Redcolor 2 and Gamma 2 are here

 

[Jannard]

Over the years though I've found that most methods of contrast lowering (flashing, low-cons, DigiCons, etc.) only add maybe 1/3-stop more of true shadow detail, the rest is just lifted blacks, which once restored to black in post, just cancels most of the perceived improvement in shadow detail. So I wouldn't give too much credit to the low-con filter in the Alexa OLPF, I'm sure it's doing something to help DR but it's not adding another true stop of information, I would guess one-third to one-half of a stop would be the most optimistically.

When we add a low-con filter to the RED ONE MX, we see 1/2 stop improvement in measured DR. Just good info to know. You can see the similarities of what this does in the highlights as compared to the Alexa... shoot a bare lightbulb with a black background. The highlights roll off much smoother but the "haze" introduced is the by-product. Blacks are as you suggested as soon as you grade them back. But the DR is measured before grading.

Jim

 

[Derek S.]

Steve great to see you here, big fan of your products

This too?

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Heheh, what's the problem Derek? If Red made a Flip competitor, would that make their other cameras any less professional? Zacuto makes great products. Lots of them will be great additions to a Red package. Not all of them are as great as their best, but it doesn't mean everything they make is meant for iPhones.

That is a very funny picture though.

 

[Marc Wielage]

We did ask all of the camera manufactures to send a representative (and some took us up on it) so that they could not say that we used their camera improperly. We also asked RED for the use of an Epic but was told they were all being used. Believe me I would have loved to have had an Epic in this test but I understand that they are in demand.

If you were on the Mole-Richardson stage over on LaBrea near Melrose, that's a tragedy you couldn't get an Epic, given that Red's LA HQ is only about six blocks away.

I'd love to see a Blu-ray release of the final test results -- I bet there's a market for a few thousand copies of a comparison like this, since it will have much more resolution and less compression than watching it on the web.

I'll definitely drop by Zacuto's booth at NAB to catch a screening in April.

 

[D Fuller]

Let me clear up some confusion about the test. I'm sorry this is so long but it needs to be to get the story straight. The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was a three part web series documenting DSLR's and how they compared with 35mm Film. Many have asked me why the RED was not included in the The Great Camera Shootout 2010. It was decided that in 2010 that we just wanted to compare all of the various DSLR's and how they compared to film. RED wasn't a DSLR so it wasn't included.

It's also been brought up that Zacuto could have some kind of bias to these tests because I'm an equipment maker. This is not true. I actually have three different companies, Zacuto rentals, Zacuto films & Zacuto USA. Zacuto films has its own 6 man staff that creates all of Zacuto's original programming like FilmFellas, Critics, The Great Camera Shootout and our new series coming called BTS. We are also working on a completely narrative drama show that we hope to compete with television except it will only be available on the web. The Great Camera Shootout 2010 was the only web show to win an Midwest Emmy and we are very proud of that. We are filmmakers first and equipment makers second. Most people don't know that I have been directing mostly corporate and commercial work since 1983 with Jens as my DP, I've actually only been in the products business since 2005. Jens and I, and our various production companies have created over 600 programs/videos. The Irony about the whole testing thing for me is that I personally am not so hung up on what camera I use. I am a huge believer in it's all about the people you have behind the camera, the script, the edit that makes for great films, but that's a different story. My documentary here is the process, trials and tribulations, and the actual evaluation of the cameras that make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011.

Now the followup that everyone has been asking me for. The Great Camera Shootout 2011 (GCS2011) is currently in production and it's purpose is to showcase digital cinema cameras. The GCS2011 is a documentary film of the Single Chip Camera Evaluation (SCCE) conducted by Robert Primes ASC and a full staff of scientists, engineers & digital specialists, almost 40 people in total working on the SCCE. Zacuto has nothing to do whatsoever with the administering of the SCCE. We even went so far as to only use competitors equipment on the cameras and excluded using any Zacuto gear in the SCCE. Zacuto was the impetus behind the SCCE, although its sole purpose is to create a documentary about the SCCE which it calls The Great Camera Shootout 2011 that will be a 3 part web series.

We did ask all of the camera manufactures to send a representative (and some took us up on it) so that they could not say that we used their camera improperly. We also asked RED for the use of an Epic but was told they were all being used. Believe me I would have loved to have had and Epic in this test but I understand that they are in demand. My tests have never been a winner take all test. We've done four of these tests and the purpose is just to see how various cameras perform in different types of testing situations, like latitude, highlights, lowlight, resolution, color, etc. I believe no camera is right for every situation. The problem is you have people buying cameras where we used to rent them and everyone is looking for the perfect camera. In the old days 1980's/90's before we started any project we would have a production meeting to decide what was the right camera for the job. I wouldn't want to be running in combat with a huge camera and I wouldn't want a 35mm film camera in a super low light situation. So that's why this test is really a comparison and not really a test.

The SCCE will be the most scientific camera comparison to date testing these cameras: 35mm film, Arri Alexa, Weiscam, Sony F35, Phantom, RED One MX, Sony F3, Panasonic AF100, Canon 5D, 1D and Nikon D7000. The SCCE also did some testing on the new ACES protocol. Phase one was a three day shoot on the Mole Richardson stages and ended on February 2nd, 2011. What I experienced documenting this SCCE was the most professional non biased testing I've ever seen in my life. Bob and his crew were so professional, dedicated and planned, nothing was left to chance or done haphazard. Phase one was the more scientific portion of the testing phase with 5 different testing stations shooting 12 different tests. A back lit set of latitude tests, charts and colors. A front lit set of resolution charts, colors charts shot in different color temperature lights. A motion test that was created and built by Clairmont Camera (high speed spinning wheels with lines on them) to test for motion artifacts as well as a strobe light test. A beautiful still life setup stylized with different colors and textures. A skin tone color test with three people of various skin tones ranging from black to medium to pale white all in the same frame. We recorded all of this on camera native formats as well as S.Two, OB1 and Codex. All together there were approximately 1000 shots from all of these tests and formats. Phase two, TBD will be actual scenes, challanging ones, similar to the ones in The Great Camera Shootout 2010. After the SCCE is wrapped and edited there will be video recorded and non-recorded screenings in LA, possibly NY and 15 recorded screenings in the Zacuto theater in the Zacuto booth at NAB. Viewers will watch the SCCE in 2 & possibly 4K resolutions and comment on what they are seeing. Many ASC DP's, producers and directors will be watching this and commenting on what they saw whilst seeing it projected. This will give the web viewer the opportunity to hear from experts in the field as they just watched it on the cinema screen. As the Director of the GCS2011, it's the closest way I can think of to give the web viewers the cinema experience. All of this material will be edited into 3 30 minute webisodes that will make up The Great Camera Shootout 2011 and will premiere on the Zacuto website as well as other websites in June 2011. Producers: Jens Bogehegn, Steve Weiss, Scott Lynch & Daniel Skubal. Directed by: Steve Weiss

This test will be fair and unbiased and I think you will really enjoy both the SCCE when it comes out in April and the GCS2011 when it comes out in June
Here you can see the crew: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/313214/Single Chip Evaluation Crew Photo 2011.jpg
Steve Weiss

Steve,

Thank you for posting this. I look forward to seeing the comparissons. Is there any chance you guys would consider posting this to Youtube's 4K media section? It would be a great way for interested people to se it at its best.

 

[steve weiss]

Sure David

 

[AnthonyFlores]

More info:

GH2 HDMI Capture Problem SOLVED - AviSynth RULES! >>>

Okay Sanjin ... I guess you just can't stop. Like I said, I really like you and value what you bring here, and appreciate the times you've answered my questions about lenses .....

But the day that you get banned because you refuse to stop posting about the GH2 on a RED CAMERA FORUM, often derailing/hijacking valuable threads that Jim himself is participating in ... well .... don't say I didn't warn you

 

[I Bloom]

Over the years though I've found that most methods of contrast lowering (flashing, low-cons, DigiCons, etc.) only add maybe 1/3-stop more of true shadow detail, the rest is just lifted blacks, which once restored to black in post, just cancels most of the perceived improvement in shadow detail. So I wouldn't give too much credit to the low-con filter in the Alexa OLPF, I'm sure it's doing something to help DR but it's not adding another true stop of information, I would guess one-third to one-half of a stop would be the most optimistically.

David,

Would you consider adding a low-con for day exteriors? I've just always avoided them since my student days. What are the cost benefits?

IBloom

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Like I said, contrast-lowering filters help a little, but very little once you restore the blacks to black, but maybe a little is all you need. And they do soften detail a bit. DigiCons and UltraCons are probably your best bet if you want to just lower contrast a bit.

 

[Tom.Wong]

Steve,

Thank you for posting this. I look forward to seeing the comparissons. Is there any chance you guys would consider posting this to Youtube's 4K media section? It would be a great way for interested people to se it at its best.

Also hope Steve reads this. I think the best course of action for closest to viewing the test you have at the highest quality possible within reason is a pro res or cineform 1080p of the master of the the video and or test. for bandwidth consideration, and no killing servers and spending a lot of money, bittorrent is the way to go, and reduser members can contribute their own bandwidth and share all around. It's the most logical and cost effective way to get the bandwidth out there, and allows a lot of us to be able to really see these tests in a very good quality, though not completely lossless but much better than any kind of streaming methodology, but enough compression to keep the file size semi reasonable...

I have a 25 mbps fios line itching to be abused...

 

[steve weiss]

Also hope Steve reads this. I think the best course of action for closest to viewing the test you have at the highest quality possible within reason is a pro res or cineform 1080p of the master of the the video and or test. for bandwidth consideration, and no killing servers and spending a lot of money, bittorrent is the way to go, and reduser members can contribute their own bandwidth and share all around. It's the most logical and cost effective way to get the bandwidth out there, and allows a lot of us to be able to really see these tests in a very good quality, though not completely lossless but much better than any kind of streaming methodology, but enough compression to keep the file size semi reasonable...

I have a 25 mbps fios line itching to be abused...

The Great Camera Shootout will first come out on the Zacuto Website, streamed, I know it's not for everyone, but it's for some. I'm sure we are going to be scrambling to just get it done and out. Then within a few weeks we should be able, with your help to figure out this bittorrent jazz. I know we have never done it before but I'm willing.

 

[Samual Murman]

Okay Sanjin ... I guess you just can't stop. Like I said, I really like you and value what you bring here, and appreciate the times you've answered my questions about lenses .....

But the day that you get banned because you refuse to stop posting about the GH2 on a RED CAMERA FORUM, often derailing/hijacking valuable threads that Jim himself is participating in ... well .... don't say I didn't warn you

People are posting about a lot of cameras in this thread, as the thread relates to a multi-camera shootout. You're not the only one who values what Sanjin brings to reduser... let the man speak.

 

[tj williams]

comparisons are good!

comparisons are good!

TJj and i are looking foreward to the upcoming tests of digital cine cameras.
All these are good cameras. Some lighter smaller. Some more rez. Some better color systems. Some more latitude. Some with more adjustable looks. For every job there is a best camera. There is no camera best for all jobs.

TJ

 

[AnthonyFlores]

People are posting about a lot of cameras in this thread, as the thread relates to a multi-camera shootout. You're not the only one who values what Sanjin brings to reduser... let the man speak.

Agreed. Trust me, I love Sanjin and was one of the first to stand up for him in several other situations, just that he has been warned about posting about the GH2 so much in MANY different threads (not just this one) and I would feel terrible if he ever got banned for not listening. That's all. Not being a jerk, I actually mean well.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agreed. Trust me, I love Sanjin and was one of the first to stand up for him in several other situations, just that he has been warned about posting about the GH2 so much in MANY different threads (not just this one) and I would feel terrible if he ever got banned for not listening. That's all. Not being a jerk, I actually mean well.

Anthony,

don't worry, I'm still alive and not banned.

If I would get Epic today then you'll be sure I will be daily posting about my experiments

but of course don't have it and in that case must find alternative "toys" to play with during that pretty long waiting time for much better toy like...

Hope you can understand me now better.

Also about G*2 you can follow me on Vimeo and dvxuser to read and see my latest experiments there...