Your opinion on my betrayal of Jim Jannard

[Andrew Kimery]

Why Canon would not have 24fps as an option seems very odd if they wanted to sell cameras.

They are probably thinking they need to protect their video cameras that shoot 23.976 fps and 29.97.


-A

 

[M.Halsell]

It would certainly be innappropriate for the RedOne to priced anywhere near the Canon 5D2 based on feature set. Since you are stepping to the front of the line proposing or suggesting that the Canon can best the RedOne, we would certainly love any footage that you could post from the Canon 5D2.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

How many shooting days?

How many shooting days?

Maybe you could work a rental for a RED ONE for about the same cost as the Canon DSLR.

On my filmout tests the RED ONE footage seems to look better than the film scans, mostly because the shots had flat lighting, but even so I think you would do better to use a RED ONE if you can.

It might be possable to shoot something with the Canon, but the 30 to 24 issue is soooo big, even I don't think I would want to get into that. People will notice the motion jitter.

On the other hand, the camera is maybe 5% of what the audience cares about, if you want to learn how to be a "filmmaker" then you can learn the other 95% with a Canon, and live with the jitter which might be OK if you make it part of the "look" of the film, bleach bypass became a "style" so who knows what f---ed up footage people will go for? Just tell the interviewers it was intentional, like the shutter angle being set too small for "Gladiator (2000)".

 

[Michael.B]

They are probably thinking they need to protect their video cameras that shoot 23.976 fps and 29.97.


-A

The fact that it is 30p is going to make a couple things difficult. It's going to make traditional audio post more challenging, especially when relating to standard video mastering and broadcast. It's also effectively locking you out of a film transfer with any decent quality, as 30p to 24p conversion is a notoriously difficult thing to do without major quality loss in the area of sharpness and motion blur.

When digital projection is the norm, frame rates will loosen, and 24p vs 30p will become an aesthetic decision. I personally thing 24p is more filmic and dramatic, but that may be because I grew up with it. But for now, if you want to distribute an indy film to theaters you will need a print.

 

[Tom Lowe]

If the 5DII does in fact come out with "30p only" it will be a testament to a very tired, outdated, "customer comes last" type of corporate thinking -- exactly what Jannard is hopefully working to abolish.

It seems like there would be some way to hack the camera, though, to make it output 1p through 24p. Is there any barrier to doing that?

 

[Lexicon]

It seems like there would be some way to hack the camera, though, to make it output 1p through 24p. Is there any barrier to doing that?

No, there is no barrier (at least not in theory), but I have been hearing some rumors about the video mode being limited to a short amount of time to ease the strain on the camera's internal processing.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Slim...

Slim...

It seems like there would be some way to hack the camera, though, to make it output 1p through 24p. Is there any barrier to doing that?

There may be a slim chance that you can put a slower crystal in, the ratio of 24/30 may be close enough. I don't think they would make it that easy, there is probably a PLL in the sensor clock that would need a firmware change to set its registers to the right harmonics.

Does anyone know a free program that will convert the Canon video files into uncompressed BMP or TIF 1920x1080 frame files?

If you can convert the Canon video file into AVI then VirtualDub (tm) might be able to make BMP frames?

I have not written "soft" frame rate conversion yet, but might later. I don't think it will look so good since you get two source images mixed in each output frame.

For "hard" frame rate conversion there is some stager of 4 then drop,

0 = 0
1 = 1
2 = 2
3 = 3
4 drop (1)
5 = 4
6 = 5
7 = 6
8 = 7
9 drop (2)
10 = 8
11 = 9
12 = 10
13 = 11
14 drop (3)
15 = 12
16 = 13
17 = 14
18 = 15
19 drop (4)
20 = 16
21 = 17
22 = 18
23 = 19
24 drop (5)
25 = 20
26 = 21
27 = 22
28 = 23
29 = drop (6)

That can be done with a macro maybe...

Canon should have a program that converts their footage to uncompressed numbered BMP and 16bit TIF frame sets, and it should shoot at 24fps and vari-rates, just silly that it does not.

They may figure that 24fps is a dead frame rate since film and Blu-Ray are going to be dead in a few years, so everything will be 30fps?

Already some of the art houses around here have "video" projectors and project some indy "films" using video projection (with no trailers since they do not have them on disk or tape to make up a show, they just start with the "feature" on video projection.)

 

[Tom Lowe]

No, there is no barrier (at least not in theory), but I have been hearing some rumors about the video mode being limited to a short amount of time to ease the strain on the camera's internal processing.

I believe there is a 4GB limit, which I think has something to do with using FAT32? I'm not sure about that. I think it comes out to 12 minutes at full 1080p, which is pretty good, all things considered. On a 16GB card, you're talking more than 30 mins of footage, broken down into several 12-minute max clips.

One thing that would obviously be nice, though, would be the ability to undercrank at like 2 fps, so timelapse and drivelapse and stuff like that could be shot without putting wear on on the physical DSLR shutter.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Can one tweak how h.264 is encoded with this Canon cam or is it - one default preset for everything?

 

[David Wyatt]

The Canon 5D II is probably perfect for a lot of stills photographers who are increasingly being asked to shoot a bit of video as well as stills for certain projects (I know a few professional photographers who have picked my brains about what cheap video camera to get for just such a situation - the 5D II will mean they can carry one less bit of kit and they can quickly and easily change between modes. For just such an application it's probably a godsend but I really can't see it being used on mid to high end productions like tv dramas, features, commercials and promos like the Red One is being used right now (and Epic probably even more so) for all the reasons mentioned so far on this thread.

I've been speculating whether Red would combine the DSMC and Scarlet but the problem would be this: a competitive stills camera needs to be at least 35mm sized (whereas Scarlet was meant to be 2/3") and if it did video as well that would possibly upset a few Red One owners. A possible solution would be that it captures stills on a 35mm-sized sensor but then captured video on a windowed 2/3" (3K) part of the sensor (unless it scaled but I don't think JJ is fan of this unless I'm mistaken...maybe that will change in this instance...who knows?). The downside of the windowed approach is you don't get the lovely shallowness of the 5D II's video mode but you do get a better codec, more sensible/useable frame rates (maybe even some limited slow-mo frame rates at 2K with further windowing?), the better and ever-improving post/workflow connection, and maybe also better audio options.

Scarlet could still be its own thing with its 2/3" sensor and a much higher spec on the video front (dual hotswap CF slots, much higher frame rates, higher data rate/less compression etc...much more like a Mini-Me Red One than a stills camera that has the added bonus of shooting some basic (yet lovely looking) video.

All idle speculation on my part...I'm sure Red have thought it through a lot clearer than I can . It's like a fiendishly difficult and somewhat costly jigsaw puzzle...and I've got a sneaking suspicion Red have just worked out where the last piece goes...roll on the 13th!!!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I just think this thread is poorly titled. It should be "Your opinion on how I motivated Jim Jannard" - he doesn't seem all that betrayed by lost sales...motivated, maybe, but not so much betrayed...just an observation.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I've been speculating whether Red would combine the DSMC and Scarlet but the problem would be this: a competitive stills camera needs to be at least 35mm sized (whereas Scarlet was meant to be 2/3") and if it did video as well that would possibly upset a few Red One owners. A possible solution would be that it captures stills on a 35mm-sized sensor but then captured video on a windowed 2/3" (3K) part of the sensor (unless it scaled but I don't think JJ is fan of this unless I'm mistaken...maybe that will change in this instance...who knows?). The downside of the windowed approach is you don't get the lovely shallowness of the 5D II's video mode but you do get a better codec, more sensible/useable frame rates (maybe even some limited slow-mo frame rates at 2K with further windowing?), the better and ever-improving post/workflow connection, and maybe also better audio options.

I hate to say it, but this is exactly the type of thinking we have seen from Canon, Sony and other major camera companies for years. Who cares if the new Scarlet/DSMC totally blows the Red One clear out of the water and only costs $3,500?! That would be wonderful, in my opinion! Technology moves fast, and a camera you buy today might have limited value two years from now. That's life in the big leagues. If Jim could put out a DSMC with FF35MM, 100FPS, REDCODE RAW, etc, for under 5 grand, then he should do it! Red One owners can either cash their R1s in on Epics, sell their R1s and buy a few DSMCs, or continue to use the Red One, which will still create amazing images for years to come. By offering R1 owners a $17K credit toward Epic (and a chance to be the first to own it), Jim has GUARANTEED its value for years to come. So R1 owners better not bitch or moan about the new cameras.

I for one am counting on Jim to hold nothing back, to put it all on the table. :weight_lift:

 

[Joe G.]

Has anyone tried After Effects time remapping to go from 30 to 24fps?

Since 30 has more information than 24, it should allow for smooth conversion, no?

 

[David Wyatt]

I hate to say it, but this is exactly the type of thinking we have seen from Canon, Sony and other major camera companies for years. Who cares if the new Scarlet/DSMC totally blows the Red One clear out of the water and only costs $3,500?! That would be wonderful, in my opinion! Technology moves fast, and a camera you buy today might have limited value two years from now. That's life in the big leagues. If Jim could put out a DSMC with FF35MM, 100FPS, REDCODE RAW, etc, for under 5 grand, then he should do it! Red One owners can either cash their R1s in on Epics, sell their R1s and buy a few DSMCs, or continue to use the Red One, which will still create amazing images for years to come. By offering R1 owners a $17K credit toward Epic (and a chance to be the first to own it), Jim has GUARANTEED its value for years to come. So R1 owners better not bitch or moan about the new cameras.

I for one am counting on Jim to hold nothing back, to put it all on the table. :weight_lift:

It's funny but I was speculating elsewhere that one of Red's big advantages was that they came into the market fresh without any of the baggage Sony & Panasonic have about upsetting existing customers by bringing out cheaper and higher spec cameras...but I guess the more Red become established and bring out new models the more they will encounter that problem. We've already seen a mountain of bleating on these forums from Red One owners who are worried that their Red Ones will be become obsolete when they thought obsolescence was meant to be obsolete etc etc.

I agree with you that this shouldn't hold Red back from developing better and better cameras (it's the nature of the beast that computer technology advances rapidly making components cheaper and more powerful year by year). These days if Red were to hold themselves back another interloper could come in and fill that niche. It's interesting in this whole scheme that Red are offering a) the more than generous part-exchange upgrade to Epic for Red One owners and b) the sensor upgrade to Mysterium X for the remaining Red One owners. In some ways it appears to be an olive branch to those people who might get upset at the threat of all these new cameras outstripping their old Red Ones.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I would say a simple answer

Canon 5D MkII vs. Scarlet.

Canon 5D MkII as a stunning 21.1-megapixel full-frame CMOS sensor with DIGIC 4 Image Processor that will make you a nice photos. Video is locked at 1080p HD and 30fps.

Scarlet will have 3K CMOS sensor and will make you a stunning 3K, 2k and HD moving (all sort of main movie frame rates) and also still images.

Still it remains unclear if Scarlet would have opportunity to have universal lens mount to get advantage of many cine and still lenses.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

For start Canon 5D mk2 is a scam. It is not available for purchase. Red One is here and now.

Canon can not take professional PL lenses, just cheap, garden variety, unusable still lenses that you can not focus with. So, not the seme glass at all. There is substantial difference here.

You can not compare heavily compressed, low bitrate H.264 with high bandwidth RedCode. The first is delivery format, the second is quality acquisition format. If you are into family holiday footage, Canon is fine. If you need professional cinema camera, it is not.

Sensors are not the same. Canon has jello skew, Red does not.

Canon is 1920x1080, Red is 4k - big difference!

Canon is not a professional video/cinema camera. I'm sure some clowns will use it for such purpose, but don't expect any studio to pick them up for the next $100m feature.

I think you are mad just comparing the two: they're chaulk and cheese.

 

[MadamImAdam]

Wait for Scarlet, noob.

Actually, if I were a noob, I would wait for Scarlet.

As it happens, I'm experienced enough to know how long it takes for a company to build a revolutionary new camera from scratch. Nov. 13 is not a release date for Scarlet. It's an announcement of what the radical brand new plan is for Scarlet -- the one that replaced the old plan. The brand new plan that Red recently came up with.

If Scarlet isn't available to be in my hands until January 2010 or later, I won't be at all surprised -- or bitter, or critical of Red. That's the kind of thing that happens, and the possibility is stated plainly right there in Jim Jannard's signature. Just over a year to get a camera from blueprint to prototype to beta to production to mass distribution would be an achievement. Getting all that done by just after NAB would be a miracle.

I imagine Scarlet is going to rock. Red doesn't make sucky products. But only the most naive of noobs would wait around for a camera that literally just went back to the drawing board.

Or advise someone else to.

 

[Tom Lowe]

It's funny but I was speculating elsewhere that one of Red's big advantages was that they came into the market fresh without any of the baggage Sony & Panasonic have about upsetting existing customers by bringing out cheaper and higher spec cameras...but I guess the more Red become established and bring out new models the more they will encounter that problem. We've already seen a mountain of bleating on these forums from Red One owners who are worried that their Red Ones will be become obsolete when they thought obsolescence was meant to be obsolete etc etc.

I agree with you that this shouldn't hold Red back from developing better and better cameras (it's the nature of the beast that computer technology advances rapidly making components cheaper and more powerful year by year). These days if Red were to hold themselves back another interloper could come in and fill that niche. It's interesting in this whole scheme that Red are offering a) the more than generous part-exchange upgrade to Epic for Red One owners and b) the sensor upgrade to Mysterium X for the remaining Red One owners. In some ways it appears to be an olive branch to those people who might get upset at the threat of all these new cameras outstripping their old Red Ones.

You are correct about Jim being able to jump right in and release brand-new technology without any baggage behind him. But frankly, I think his best move would be to continue down that path.

I personally don't have much sympathy for people who complain about a camera company putting out a better camera and refusing to "dumb it down" so as not to hurt their investment. What they are essentially saying -- at the core of their argument -- is that they don't want other people (or even themselves!) to get awesome new technology at a lower price. It's a completely selfish argument that does nothing but stall new technology and limit the number of people who will have new technology in their hands to create art.

Now, a reasonable amount of time is something else. I would be pissed if I bought Product A from a camera company, and then out of the blue four months later they put out Product B with specs 75% better, at a lower price (although this does happen sometimes with Intel's new CPUs). But Scarlet and Epic were announced a long time ago. They are not going to catch any reasonably informed R1 owner off guard. If you are worried about Scarlet being "too awesome" then sell your Red One for $17 or $18K to someone who wants to get in line for an Epic.

I hope Jim is absolutely ruthless when it comes to unleashing technology and never dumbing it down.

 

[MadamImAdam]

Frequently asked questions

Frequently asked questions

Are you willing to work around the Jellocam issue?
Yes.

What about the low data rate?
I can live with it.

But it isn't anything close to a proper cine camera.
I am trying to care about that but cannot. Your mileage may vary.

You can't make a feature with a consumer camera.
In my reality, the films Personal Velocity and The Celebration exist, and they are terrific feature films. Your reality may vary.

Do you really think the image quality will be as good as Red One?
No.

So...?
I am presently an HVX200 owner.

Oh.
Are there any more questions?

What are you going to do with the money you save?
Make a movie.

 

[Tom Lowe]

What about 30p? You cannot really convert to 24p for your movie.