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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

You win Epic.. nothing else yet

J

jorge krausch

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I tried every route to find a cheaper 4K option so I could buy great lenses... Epic X seems to be already third down from Dragon and Dragon Carbon Fibre.. Lenses dont lose value like a camera, I thought so the conspiracy was to sell my Red Epic kit and get a cheap body on amazing lenses...

Zeiss CP2 lenses on a cheap 4K body as opposed to having an Epic with a Tamron 24-70!! (affordability issue) So I researched and researched.. and despite the heaviness of the Epic, fan noise, the inability to deshake without jelly effect.. I didnt find anything better than Redcode.. As Clinton would say "its the Redcode stupid"

I looked at the Canon 1DC.. Wow I thought! 4K in 1.5 kilos!! Id prob shoot a lot more and get into places without a permit.. then the 8 bit thing with banding catch came.. Damn! I thought!

I looked further.. ok, theres the FS700 .. wow if I attach a Odyssey7Q it can record 4K !! then I have extreem LOW LIGHT and Zeiss lenses in 4K for the price of my EPIC.. but then I thought, do I want a 7 inch monitor on my FS700 when I shoot alone? OK, so i checked and I can trigger record it from the camera and leave the Odyssey in the backback. Great I thought, I'll get the FS700.. But then another catch: The FS700 outputs on 3GSDI only at 8Bit .. ARRGHH.. so id be recording a 12bit copy of an 8Bit image.

Back to the drawing board... I started looking into the Blackmagic 4K... Great.. but not out yet to study much. But no ROLLING SHUTTER !! So great and at that price I can get 4 CP2 Zeiss lenses that will never lose market value!! The catch: Crap.. so the footage if I want good RAW I wont be able to edit on a macbook pro.. not even the new one.. Files too heavy and big. AND I cant do LOW LIGHT... its a 400ISO camera.. AND its not really Super35.. article: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/124/884317

So I came home, looked at my EPIC and said : Ok Epic, you win, and I started going to the Gym to get used to my 4.2 kilos of handheld shooting.. because after all, the Redcode is such an amazing Codec.. nothing else seems to beat it yet.. even if i wanted them to. 'Ok' lens on a 'Wow' camera for the time being is my only route.
 
Seems like with Dragon coming out the only reason not to shoot Red is if you need a lighter camera with a smaller footprint and runs on tiny batteries, so you can shoot docs. Or want a tiny POV camera.
 
LoL.. im trying eggs and baked beans after workouts. Epic already feels lighter.
Carbon fibre is only ~400g lighter anyway.. so nothing a few months workout wont compensate ;)
 
Am still hoping to get my hand on EPIC - Still using 10 Kilo RED MX, I feel pain in my crag after a long day shooting.
 
A radical idea... the Dragon may make it unnecessary to spend huge sums on lenses in order to get GREAT footage. Consider that you will be able to shoot at 5k or even 4k and only use the sweet spot of a lens... and do so with 16 1/2 stops at IIRC, a very low compression rate that will be coming in the future (3 to 1, I think Jim said some months ago.)

I believe this may be one of the reasons RED quit making lenses, even though theirs was of a very high quality.

Of course, those whose thoughts are still bound within the box will argue differently, in regard to camera quality trumping Super Pro lens in image acquisition.
 
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I would prefer a EPIC (or Scarlet) with good still-glass over every other camera combined with "pro"-lenses any day. It's one of the beautiful things of REDs system, you can use the best camera together with affordable (but good) still glass and produce great images.

BTW, the CP.2-series doesn't offer you that much more over their ZE/ZF-variants anyway, IQ-wise only (i'm not talking about build-quality/handling, those things are obvious). ;)
 
I agree yet... im sad with the low light. I shot at 800 asa and it looked so noisy..
The fs700 and 1dc are noise-free at 1600iso.. doesnt feel fair I have to invest 6000 more on upgrade to get clean low light... but redcode is amazing. They should make a pocket Red DSLR with low light and redcode :)
 
jorge krausch said:
I agree yet... im sad with the low light. I shot at 800 asa and it looked so noisy..
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It gets noisy only if you try to get dark and underexposed areas back to light. If you expose properly and add some light into the scene, lowlight stuff can look great. The thing is, thanks to REDCODE and 4k/5k, you can even get back some details into light and get rid of the noise with some post-processing.

Other cameras might look better straight out of camera, but remember, one reason for that is, they're doing some postprocessing in camera, while with RED you have to apply it by yourself. But sensors have become better than MX in some disciplines, i agree... And hey, thats why there is a Dragon coming.

doesnt feel fair I have to invest 6000 more on upgrade to get clean low light...
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What? ;) It doesn't feel fair that you don't have to buy a complete new camera, that you can upgrade to newest sensor tech? REALLY?!

but redcode is amazing. They should make a pocket Red DSLR with low light and redcode :)
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Hehe, every time when i work with DSLR so called "RAW"-files i wish there would be a DSLR from RED, just for stills. Dragon sensor, REDCODE RAW and a good AF-system in a body with the size of a 1dx or 5dm3, i would love that... Well i wouldn't say no if this thing could do motion too, hehe.
 
Damn I remember when I used to buy Sony / Canon / Panasonic cameras only to find out 6 months later that the other one is about to release a better camera. this is 2+ years and Epic is still the best game in town. Amazing
 
Pocket Dragon would be insane! Would absolutely want motion from it though... Wouldn't care for over-crank if I could throw it in a backpack!
 
Having the same problems.
I also considered the F5 + R5 or the F55.
The size is a bit large, but managable. Unless I need to squeeze it into a small space.
But the big factor was that it wasnt that well known.

Clients know and talk about red. So, give them what they want. It is good.
But, the low light and noise is a pain.

Im still saving up for the Epic-X. But maybe I can come aross a used Alexa instead?
Id feel much safer with one than the Red cameras. But, cost is a big factor and Im not sure how Id go about recording raw on it.
 
Michael Frymus said:
Having the same problems.
I also considered the F5 + R5 or the F55.
The size is a bit large, but managable. Unless I need to squeeze it into a small space.
But the big factor was that it wasnt that well known.

Clients know and talk about red. So, give them what they want. It is good.
But, the low light and noise is a pain.

Im still saving up for the Epic-X. But maybe I can come aross a used Alexa instead?
Id feel much safer with one than the Red cameras. But, cost is a big factor and Im not sure how Id go about recording raw on it.
Click to expand...

A used Alexa will be far more expensive... and not exactly 'small' in form factor. You'll need something like a Codex for Raw (if the Alexa is an older/non XT/XR model).

You seem to be swinging all over the place in your camera choice... maybe check out the Arri Amira - this might fall into the price bracket you want.

Also, check out AbelCine for Alexa packages, you'll be spending a lot more $$$ than an Epic/Dragon.

Why not get a Dragon M when you can? A few thousand more on a premium, but, if your clients are clamoring for RED and the 'latest' tech they hear about, you'll be onto a winner, as you'll have the coolest/most advanced camera on the block (until something else comes out!) it should be easy to rent and start to get a decent ROI... and you will have the type of noiseless/low light performance you seem to be seeking.

Personally, Epic is pretty good... nearly all the footage I see where people complain about noise is down to lack of lighting or (more often) badly exposed images... and low light (I take it you mean 'no light') shooting is pretty much something that is chased by younger people who have grown used to DSLR's from the last few years... lights are cheap and having a few panels that can run off batteries should be part of any basic kit and they can be a life save in a multitude of situations :)
 
I agree.. but for me the whole point of low light IS lack of lighting.. to do something completely natural and authentic without needing to artificially simulate the reality as we see it with lighting. When cameras shoot without lights well see how people see the world in a film. Unless of course its intended to be fictional visually in a fantasy kind of way, then yes lights will serve an expressive purpose. But i love unmanipulated film, that of course without the punishment of noise.
 
jorge krausch said:
I agree.. but for me the whole point of low light IS lack of lighting.. to do something completely natural and authentic without needing to artificially simulate the reality as we see it with lighting. When cameras shoot without lights well see how people see the world in a film. Unless of course its intended to be fictional visually in a fantasy kind of way, then yes lights will serve an expressive purpose. But i love unmanipulated film, that of course without the punishment of noise.
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Mmm - this is a different debate and maybe hints as to why you aren't happy with your Epic. IMO, expecting low light performance 'as you see it' will only come from a Dragon (or maybe another 'see in the dark' competitor camera). Even your Epic and fast lenses won't give you noise free (ie - in film terms 'grainless') images.

I'd push the Dragon upgrade over lenses, if you want to achieve unlit footage that's not as noisy.
 
Andy you have a point.. in fact the RED guys did mention there might be a possibility of third party financing for the dragon upgrade (for those who dont have 10K in their pocket).. This made the Dragon less of a daydream more of a possibility to me...
 
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