Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

"You Get What You Pay For????"

AnthonyFlores

AnthonyFlores

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Hollywood, CA
Hi Guys,

Quick question for those with more hands-on experience ...

Obviously, everyone has heard the expression "you get what you pay for."

It (often) seems to be very true in the film/video world. However, I say
"often" because Red has become the exception. Case in point -- the Epic
will deliver features/quality not present in any other camera (even the
Alexa) at a pricepoint that's less than half of the Alexa.

YET WHAT ABOUT LENSES?

I was looking at the Abel Cine Store and also previous forum posts, and
came across the Arri/Zeiss Master Primes -- which run about $24,000
each.

So I'm wondering -- what would be the advantage of using these over
the Red Pro Primes, for example. The difference is nearly $20,000 per
lens!

Is this another example of Red delivering equal or better value, for a lot
less money -- or are there some important quality differences?

(I know the Master Primes are slightly faster/better in low light at 1.3 vs
1.8 on Red, but what else? Are you just paying for the established name?)

Does Red outsource its optics to a German company like Zeiss or
Schneider, and just not have the same big markups? I'm just curious ...

I know many Red users have at least dabbled in the Arri/Zeiss Ultra
Primes or Master Primes, so I'd love to get people's thoughts and
experience.

Thanks! :thumbup1:

Anthony
 
basically it boils down to the difference in cost/price between really, really good and EXTREMELY good, i.e. virtually as good as it gets.

really good with high production numbers is expensive (for example Canon L series lenses $1300 to $2100 or so for L primes)

really, really good with pro mechanical features and reasonably high production numbers is significantly more with the RPPs about $4750

EXTREMELY good with low production numbers - probably only a few hundred sets per year - like the Master primes - get much, much more expensive thus the $20K price. These lenses are better, but maybe not hugely so - but that last extra bit costs an awful lot. One difference is that they are T1.3 lenses so almost a stop faster than RPPs and nearly perfect optically.

If you want T1.3 in cinema lenses at about the RPP prices, take a look at the new Optar Illumina lenses.

it's kind of like cars. You can buy a car like BMW M3 for about $60K that ought to be fast and nimble enough for almost any normal human being. To get something substantially higher performance you have to go to the Ferrari class and spend $600,000 or so. That extra bit of performance on the top end of most products costs a LOT more.
 
Master Primes

Master Primes

At what f/ stop are the MasterPrimes diffraction limited?
 
I think the Master Primes are worth every penny, as are their major competitor the Cooke S5i.

I have not personally used the new Leica PL mount lenses, but I expect them to be VERY good and about half the price of Master Primes.

Its all down to standards and budgets. Building off of Michael's post... I like to use Zeiss's range of lenses for comparison. This is simply because they make mass market lenses for SLR photography on up to the very Master Primes you are asking about.

When you move from the Zeiss ZF lenses to the Zeiss CP.2 lenses you get a cinema style housing, a better manufactured iris, and uniform size. The cinema style ergonomics make a huge difference on on set production time. They shorten the time for lens changes, and they are far easier for the 1st AC to work with, which of course means you hear a lot less of, "need another for camera" on sets.

That said the lens elements are the exact same as the Zeiss SLR lenses.

The RED Pro Primes are in the same sort of category. About $4000 per lens.

When you compare them to the next step, Zeiss UltraPrimes you note a difference in optical distortion. To me this is most apparent when panning the camera or doing lateral dolly movement. While the UltraPrimes still offer distortion that distortion has been somewhat more regularized lens to lens in a set.

Further the UltraPrimes have better color matching and have almost negligible breathing.

Master Primes have no visible optical distortion. They do distort, but I've only ever noted the distortion with computer assistance. Their color matching is superb... usually my own differences in shot to shot exposure/lighting are of far greater concern, and breathing is almost completely eliminated again I've only noted it with computer assistance.

So, how much do those issues concern you and your clients? What are your rates? How large is your audience?

Despite appreciating every tiny iota of the difference between a Master Prime and an Ultra Prime, I still shoot day to day on SLR lenses- because my projects and clients don't appreciate and can't afford the difference.

That said, I know that Master Primes will not only make my work look better, they'll make the colorists work easier, and the compositor's work as well. If your clients are paying for that full pipe-line of work then they may appreciate the overall savings that spending more on the Master Prime rentals will generate.

For what its worth, I think both the Cooke S4 and S5 are on par with the Master Primes... but the S4 lenses are t/2.0.
 
Alexander Ibrahim said:
I

I have not personally used the new Leica PL mount lenses, but I expect them to be VERY good and about half the price of Master Primes.
Click to expand...

Alexander,

let you know something:


Leica-C series set of 8 (eight) PL lenses with the price of Euro 129.000 and per lens it costs Euro 16.125,00.

16,125.00 Euro (EUR) equals 20,393.29 US Dollar (USD).

Also Leica-C series of lenses are better in many ways than Carl Zeiss Master Primes or new Cooke 5/i series.

Why?

They are smaller and lighter with exceptional optical quality only Leica can deliver.

Leicas are never cheap lenses and You Get What You Pay For.

Read more: Leica Summilux-C Cine Lens Saga (PDF)>>>
 
Wow, thanks guys ... great thoughts.

Mike, good analogy with cars. I get that better now.

Alexander, great reply! You sound very experienced with these lenses.

Part of the reason I created this post is that I will likely have a $300,000-
400,000 film equipment budget for my own production company within
the next 12 months. And I so I'm considering whether it makes sense to
get 3-4 of the Master Primes (1/3 or 1/4 my total budget) -- especially
since you can get an otherwise excellent Red set or Zeiss CP2 set or a Schneider Cine Xenar set for the price of a single MP lens.

My projects will be narrative, documentary, and marketing/commercials
-- and most will be web-based ... so the MPs may be overkill for my needs.

However, I will have an office in Hollywood and might also start renting
equipment if it makes sense. Then again ... these lenses might be too
much for the indie folks ... and I doubt the big guns in Hollywood will
be renting from little ol' me!

Anyway, thanks for the feedback so far. :001_cool:

Anthony
 
Wow ...

Wow ...

Wow, Sanjin! Thanks for that link. I read every word and those sound like
they will be the best cine lenses in the world.

I've had many pro photographers tell me there is nothing like Leica -- it has
a uniquely beautiful look that they can pick out of a lineup. And some experts
like Shane Hurlbut think they are by far the best of the still lenses to
use with DSLR work.

Actually I hate you! Now I'm going to be having dreams of the Epic HDRx
with these lenses -- and neither are available!! :mad:

I wish they were at the PhotoCine Expo in Hollywood 2 weeks from now.
Would be so cool to check them out.

Thanks again,

Anthony
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Wow, Sanjin! Thanks for that link. I read every word and those sound like
they will be the best cine lenses in the world.

I've had many pro photographers tell me there is nothing like Leica -- it has
a uniquely beautiful look that they can pick out of a lineup. And some experts
like Shane Hurlbut think they are by far the best of the still lenses to
use with DSLR work.

Actually I hate you! Now I'm going to be having dreams of the Epic HDRx
with these lenses -- and neither are available!! :mad:

I wish they were at the PhotoCine Expo in Hollywood 2 weeks from now.
Would be so cool to check them out.

Thanks again,

Anthony
Click to expand...

Anthony,

also don't forget that Panavision Primo L and newer Primo Series optically made together with a help and knowledge of the former Leica Canadian Division called ELCAN (Ernst Leitz CANada).

Leica Look already made the film history.
 
Buying "3-4" master primes is a waste of money. No one willing to pay MP rates will rent a set of less than 8.

If you must own, considering the budget you mentioned, I think you would be better looking at the RPP's, the optars,
supers / standards, CP primes, cooke pancros etc. The new leicas, while a wildly exciting new series, are still fairly pricey for most owner ops and not widely available yet.
 
Rent the Master Primes. Buy the RPP's. If you are in a rental business then it would make sense to buy Zeiss MP's. But if you want to own a set for your own use, the RPP will do in almost any situation, then you can still rent the MP's if you need to. There are many, me included who think that the RPP are pretty much on par with the Ultra primes, so It wouldn't make sense to buy those at far greater cost that the RPP's. just my 2 cents.
 
Angie zooms

Angie zooms

You have a great option in Angenieux zooms. The Rogue series 16-42 and 30-80 are about as good as they come zoom or prime for a very reasonable price. You'll have an equivalent of a full set of primes and everything in between in a very light weight versatile package. The image quality has no penalty- the speed penalty is negligible IMO...
God I should be getting a cut from Angie for these plugs -but I DON'T:001_tongue:
If you have to have primes for speed or other purposes RPPs are probably the best value today. There is the weight issue in some situations. But so there is with MPs-they are even bigger and heavier, S4s, S5s, etc. When they first came out I was wondering if Zeiss is charging per pound(or kilo) for these. definitely the silver/gold per pound price.
You can't however forget the perception factor. Here in Hollywood the RPPs have no legacy so for better budgets you'll still have to rent Zeiss or Cooke. The DP will make you get what they want- they won't put their reputation on the line with RPPs. At least not yet...
 
Okay, I love lenses, every one knows that..

Master Primes, were all I ever wanted since their first announcement and when I first played with them, I was simply in WOW about them, Construction, Image Quality, the fill of it, the way they match each other in Color especially, the cool fill about them, I don't like Cokes warm fill, if I need to add warm I can do that in post, and then there is their speed T*1.2 WOW, what more is to say about that, this lenses are the absolute standard by which other lenses are manufactured PERIOD!!

Then Came the RPP's and again was love at first site, even so the RPP's do not have the Focus markings as perfectly done on them, they are beautifully Build and with great image quality and sharpness but at one fourth to one fifth of the price depending to which Focal of the MP's are compared to, so how can you not love them, well only thing is this are T*1.8, so if you need faster aperture you have to turn to MP's, as there is no way I will use the Older Supersedes, sorry those are not for me, you can have them, especially at the stupid prices people are asking for this days, the RPP's will blow any of them away any time of day or night when shooting at same aperture till T*1.8.

Then now there is the new love of my life, the LEICA CINE Primes, this have by all means answered all my desires, both as Photographer, Cinematographer, DP, and FilmMaker, as they just simply bring the highest Image Quality just like Master Primes and Red Pro Primes do, but with all of them been in the same size, length, weight, and front circular screw in Filter size, while in an impeccable new design, which brings Cine Primes to a all new level.

So choices are there, but if I was to work on projects were, I didn't had to worry about discriminating Producers, Directors, DP's and Corporate were they would just want to have the name before anything else, and for this Master Primes are the standard, then I will go with Red Pro Primes, just simply put, fantastic lenses for the money, were no one, and I mean this, no one, will know the difference of which lenses you used to film something, unless off course you needApertures to be as wide of T*1.4 or T*1.2, then you either go Master Primes, or the new King on the Block to be the LEICA Cine Primes.

Sure you do always get what you pay for, but with the RPP's you don't!!

You get way MORE!!
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
...unless off course you needApertures to be as wide of T*1.4 or T*1.2, then you either go Master Primes, or the new King on the Block to be the LEICA Cine Primes.
Click to expand...

or the T1.3 super35 Illuminas I mentioned before...
 
Last edited:
illuminas

illuminas

I've heard conflicting opinions and rumors about these. The Optar legacy is "less than stellar " for one.
They look great on paper(specs) for sure. The fact that there aren't many around is an indication of teething issues at the very least. Could be a marketing letdown as well. I would love to have a look at them myself because of the very attractive specs I've seen..
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Leica-C series set of 8 (eight) PL lenses with the price of Euro 129.000 and per lens it costs Euro 16.125,00.

16,125.00 Euro (EUR) equals 20,393.29 US Dollar (USD).

QUOTE]

FYI the set does not yet exist, most of the lenses on show at IBC were dummies. The 21 & 40 were complete as prototypes, however I did find a strange flair with the 21mm wide open with highlights about 7 stops over. The problem went away when the lens was stopped down 1/2 stop, hopefully this will be sorted out by the time they become a real product.
I have been giving feedback to manufactures for 30 years whether they wanted it or not!

Stephen
Click to expand...
 
Stephen Williams said:
[Sanjin Jukic>>>
Leica-C series set of 8 (eight) PL lenses with the price of Euro 129.000 and per lens it costs Euro 16.125,00.

16,125.00 Euro (EUR) equals 20,393.29 US Dollar (USD).

Q]

FYI the set does not yet exist, most of the lenses on show at IBC were dummies. The 21 & 40 were complete as prototypes, however I did find a strange flair with the 21mm wide open with highlights about 7 stops over. The problem went away when the lens was stopped down 1/2 stop, hopefully this will be sorted out by the time they become a real product.
I have been giving feedback to manufactures for 30 years whether they wanted it or not!

Stephen
Click to expand...

Some of the issues were already reported before at NAB in April and Leica is working hard to solve it.

Don't worry they will do it.

The target date for shipping is February 2011.

That means you couldn't get it for IBC.

Also one of the reasons I didn't go there this time.

It was nothing special to see anyway.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top