Yes! Better 2k

[James Drake]

It was listed as a feature on one of the recent builds, and now we're running 2.0.5.

Having shot a very similar project a few months back on an older firmware and just having shot in the same location,= at the same compression, resolution, and lenses, I'm here to say that yes, the 2k is indeed better. At 6:1, it's pretty darn good.

Would still love slightly less noise in darker environments of course, but I'm glad to see the improvement.

Thanks Red, looking forward to what 2012 holds.

 

[Mitch Martinez]

That's great news!

 

[Lee Saxon]

I don't understand the 2K issues at all.

On my GH2, full sensor mode uses downsampling and other such hoodoo that 1:1 sensor crop mode doesn't. It makes total sense that the footage is very different.

But supposedly neither Epic's 2K nor 5K mode employ any such garbage, so why aren't they identical?

On my D700 there's no difference between an "APS-C mode" photo and a full frame photo that's been cropped in Photoshop...

 

[Erich Ocean]

On my GH2, full sensor mode uses lineskipping, downsampling, and other such hoodoo that 1:1 sensor crop mode doesn't. It makes total sense that the footage is very different.

The GH2 does not do lineskipping; that's one of the main reasons people like it (besides the hackability).

 

[David Rasberry]

I don't understand the 2K issues at all.

On my GH2, full sensor mode uses lineskipping, downsampling, and other such hoodoo that 1:1 sensor crop mode doesn't. It makes total sense that the footage is very different.

But supposedly neither Epic's 2K nor 5K mode employ any such garbage, so why aren't they identical?

On my D700 there's no difference between an "APS-C mode" photo and a full frame photo that's been cropped in Photoshop...

Red 2k is a 2.2Mp frame vs 14Mp for 5k. The quality of the deBayer algorithms becomes much more critical for 2k.

 

[Lee Saxon]

The quality of the deBayer algorithms becomes much more critical for 2k.

When shooting 5K and downsampling to 2K, it makes sense that the quality of debayering (and compression, and even other things like lens choice) are much less critical than shooting native 2K.

But what I'm confused about is why shooting 5K and cropping to 2K would look any different than shooting native 2K.

 

[Häakon]

When shooting 5K and downsampling to 2K, it makes sense that the quality of debayering (and compression, and even other things like lens choice) are much less critical than shooting native 2K.

But what I'm confused about is why shooting 5K and cropping to 2K would look any different than shooting native 2K.

Because you're not natively watching anything at 5K. Most people won't see their footage in 4K even (for the time being), letalone 5K. The vast majority of users are finishing in 2K/1080p, so the reality is that the vast majority of people are comparing oversampled 5K to native 2K footage. And yes, there's a huge difference there.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot any lower than 3K for a 1080 project, but I know people are obsessed with 300 fps. I shudder to think what Scarlet's 1K will look like. For all of the "4K is where all cameras need to be" preaching that RED does, I find a huge disconnect that they include lower res crops on all of their cameras. But I guess we all have different tolerance levels. The point is, if you're actually finishing in 4K, anything lower than that shouldn't be acceptable anyway, so the discussion becomes moot. But yes, I think you will find a striking difference between oversampled 5K and the 2K outputs of the camera, which is most likely how you would employ the two modes.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Hey Häak, how long... How are you?

The point is, if you're actually finishing in 4K, anything lower than that shouldn't be acceptable anyway, so the discussion becomes moot.

Reason enough to justify the future-proof-Epic/Scarlet-purchase ;-)

Emanuel

 

[Uli Plank]

@Lee
Compare your GH2 at Extended Tele mode – that's windowing in 1920 x 1080…

 

[Lee Saxon]

Because you're not natively watching anything at 5K...

Okay that explains it, I thought the complaints were about 5K vs 2K viewed 1:1, for instance in Redcine.

Complaining that native 2K isn't as good as 5K downsampled to 2K is incredibly dumb. It didn't even occur to me that that could be what people were talking about.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

I shudder to think what Scarlet's 1K will look like. For all of the "4K is where all cameras need to be" preaching that RED does, I find a huge disconnect that they include lower res crops on all of their cameras...

I dislike this mentality. Sure, it might be lower quality than 4k, but if I wish to use a lower crop for slow motion on my project, and I am okay with the drop in quality, let me! Maybe I'm delivering for web or SD. Give the user options. Don't restrict them just because they might not meet some extremely high standard.

 

[Per von Koch]

I dislike this mentality. Sure, it might be lower quality than 4k, but if I wish to use a lower crop for slow motion on my project, and I am okay with the drop in quality, let me! Maybe I'm delivering for web or SD. Give the user options. Don't restrict them just because they might not might some extremely high standard.

Well put.

 

[Norbert Jalitsch]

I dislike this mentality. Sure, it might be lower quality than 4k, but if I wish to use a lower crop for slow motion on my project, and I am okay with the drop in quality, let me! Maybe I'm delivering for web or SD. Give the user options. Don't restrict them just because they might not might some extremely high standard.

+1

norbert

 

[Mark B.]

I dislike this mentality. Sure, it might be lower quality than 4k, but if I wish to use a lower crop for slow motion on my project, and I am okay with the drop in quality, let me! Maybe I'm delivering for web or SD. Give the user options. Don't restrict them just because they might not meet some extremely high standard.

Agreed!

 

[Häakon]

I dislike this mentality. Sure, it might be lower quality than 4k, but if I wish to use a lower crop for slow motion on my project, and I am okay with the drop in quality, let me! Maybe I'm delivering for web or SD. Give the user options. Don't restrict them just because they might not meet some extremely high standard.

Hi Niko,

I just stated there was a disconnect in their message and the product they're putting out... not saying you can't have a crop in your camera. In fact, you can.

I do get awfully confused with RED's mantra at times, however, and this discussion is a perfect example. Look at the most recent Recon topic regarding Arri and their Alexa. Jim scoffs at the notion that anyone is still making a 1080p camera for this market because he doesn't deem that good enough for professional work. Okay, that's a valid opinion. But then they're including a 1K crop feature on Scarlet that will resolve to SD resolution if you're lucky just to eek out 120p? Clearly that can't be good enough for a "professional" end product. And sure, just like you've stated - options are awesome. Maybe you *are* using your RED to make something for the web. But then with that mentality, why not make a proxy module that records to 1080p Prores? I can tell you it would sell like hotcakes. I can also tell you that a whole lot of people would start using that 1080p footage as their online, because it's smaller, much more manageable, and is a fantastic oversample from the 5K sensor. Do you think Jim wants people to use their 5K RAW camera in that way? I'll give you a hint: the answer is no. And yet we still have this 1K crop thing.

I agree with you, options are good. I want more options. I just see a disconnect.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I love shooting at 2K for its 300fps, but just when shooting on the Phantom in high speed mode you need a S%^$#W^ Load of Light in order to get your image to were it can be on EPIC,
if you think that you can shoot at 2K high speed frame rates and be happy with available light think again, or deal wit the noise...