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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Yes another RED one MX or Scarlet question.... But I need your help!

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Joesef o.

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Ok, so I know there are a lot of these questions on the site and I've read most of them, but it seems their threads get hijacked quickly and never come to a good answer..

I'm just trying to weigh in my options and see which camera setup best suits me:

I HAVE shot with R1 MX's a few times but that was a long time ago....

My question is, if you had the chose between a fully kited out R1MX or a barebones Scarlet with V-mount which would you chose and why?


I have the option of buying either or, but the things that get me hung up are the bootup times and overheating issues. I come from Sony gear, and all of my sony cameras have been through hell and back with no issues what-so-ever. I've been through Africa in deserts, jungle, rain, you name it and never had a problem. Large swings of temp from -10F to 115F

So is the R1MX up to the task of high heat? Does the scarlet handle any better with weather conditions? Also, is there any image benefit from either or? I know the specs, but I'm unsure of the ability to get any nicer of an image out of the scarlet than an R1 at 4.5k


Any and all help would be super appreciated, looking to dive into the red community soon!
 
Joesef, I rented a R1 a few times, and they performed awesome in some taxing heat, but I never actually owned one. Here's a couple of thoughts after using my Scarlet for 6 months in all the conditions you described, plus underwater in a housing.
(I live on an island with 11 of the 13 climate zones in the world, so she's seen it all in that time, often all in one day!)

Several key reasons I jumped on the Scarlet after watching and waiting for several years for the R1 to get an update:
1) Boot time. I think it's 90 seconds on the R1? 15 secs on the Scarlet, which still seems too long sometimes for the type of work I do.
2) Form factor. My criteria for a system is heavily dependent on being able to access the camera quickly from a backpack, hip bag, etc. The R1 isn't as big as other cameras in it's class, but still to me seems like a studio or stationary setup rig.
3) The future. Not many new accessories coming out from RED or 3rd parties these days for the R1, and when it's time for my Epic, everything I bought for the Scarlet works with it. That may take a bit, so the question of how much is the R1 going to be selling for in the future compared to the Scarlet becomes a significant concern.
4) Warranty. You don't get one with the R1, or maybe you get 90 days after you have RED transfer/assess it? With the Scarlet you get a year, 3 years if you want it.
5) Auto focus/Electronic Iris. I love this option, especially for field work. I don't think you get that on a R1 still lens mount.
6) Touch LCD. Keeps my line of sight on the subject, not looking around on the body for controls. Plus we've been getting all those cool firmware updates enabling new menu functions making the screen even more useful.
7) REDVolts. People love to dis them on here sometimes, but I love having small batteries with a small charger for packing up a mountain or traveling on a plane. I use regular and XL's. Side handle, combined with the Quad, to me it's a pretty nice system.

There's probably some other stuff I'm leaving out, but after owning pushing my Scarlet hard for 6 months in some pretty challenging conditions, I'm confident in my decision to buy it over a used R1. Hope it helps.
BTW, welcome to REDUser :-)
 
Thanks so much Jeff, yeah I usually bring my camera to harsh environments at least 2 times a year, I shoot in Africa, and then middle of the USA in some pretty cold times as well. Boot time seems to be a pain - specially coming from Sony "instant on" type setups... but I'm trying to see if owning a bare bones Scarlet will help me or hurt me...

I am not a rich man, and barely have enough money to afford either kit, so it gets to the point where I have to make an important decision.

I also would like to add that being a cinematographer is my full time job (freelance) I do not make a living in any other way, and 90% of the time I'm DPing with my own camera (currently an F3)

I guess im really stuck and just trying to reach out to those of which who've used and owned both systems and can help put the price into perspective. I cannot afford to own an epic, nor could I even afford to buy a New scarlet, I'm barely at the range to afford a used one though.

I guess anymore incite would help, thanks guys!
 
Dragon sensor is something to consider. You can't upgrade Red One to Dragon. Might not be an issue now but down the line...

Otherwise comes down to what you shoot. Both have pros and cons. I'd make a list of all your requirements and see which camera has the most checks.
 
I made the decision about two weeks ago, my used scarlet is in the mail from red...I am using my buddies Nikon glass when a Nikon mount comes out to save on the difference on 9/7. I am not buying any PL glass until Dragon comes out and I see what vignettes. I currently have no mags batteries or reader lol...but I will get it all once my mount arrives.. Along with a new mac and 15-20tb in storage. Going to throw a reel together and see what happens, if I can't make a ROI by Dragon I am upgrading and looking to cosign. We'll see what happens, I am booked out anyway on a gig with their own red doing quite well these days, knock on wood...
 
I'd say go Scarlet over R1 for travel - it gets to feel really big and heavy very quickly unless you have a crew to help.

Having said that a barebones Scarlet is probably less useful than your existing kitted out F3 which I'm assuming you have all the necessary accessories for already. While some of those might work with the F3, if you're on that tight of a budget, maybe stick with the F3 - it's capable of great pictures too, and the media sure is a lot cheaper.
 
hmm all valid points, i'll bring up one more point:

A few years back RED One had these proxies that use to be made instantly that you can open in FCP and do an offline edit with. They came in a few different flavors and were easy to work with... I've been told that isn't possible anymore????
 
if you can go with the scarlet mate... you will not regret it. I've been shooting either on my own or with 1-2 other crew members and just the size & weight factor alone make it so worth it. I can pack 3 lenses, scarlet, v-mount battery & mattebox with filters in one think tank shapeshifter backpack and be on my way. Setting up, packing down... super fast & easy. I've been in the desert in the southwest USA, rainforest in Thailand & Vietnam, sweltering heat in Tokyo and not a hickup. If you're shooting incognito at all, scarlet is unbeatable. I'm shooting on streets just with scarlet and sticks and have never been approached by authorities for permits, people barely give it a second glance (except camera geeks). Anyways I don't know what kind of productions you are on so that may not apply to you, but it's a great added benefit, atleast for me!

when you're putting together your package you can save a *little* bit of money on third party batteries (v-mount) and eschew the side handle. Also third party gear such as top handle and 15mm rod adapter bottom plate are relatively cheap. For the type of stuff I do shooting documentary in the field 3x64gb SSDs is enough also.

One thing that you will have to consider over shooting with cameras such as your Sony's is HD space... but it seems you've considered that. That was probably the largest hidden cost we've had, having to buy upwards of 20TB for our feature film.

As others mentioned the support and upgrade path on the Scarlet is just too big of a deal to ignore.
 
Any can chime in about the R3D in camera proxies are no longer able to be made with scarlet? Is this true? If so that could kill my whole option to go scarlet, as for I do not have an editing system that could handle working with the R3D files natively and it would take a lot of time to make proxies just to get a quick and simple edit done... I only have a 15" MBP 2.26 Core 2 Duo with 8gigs ram...

I dont think I could invest into scarlet without having to invest in a much more powerful MacBook Pro just to work with the files.... Unlike the older builds of the MX that still support the Proxies...

Can any help me confirm this? As I see it I could get a used R1MX and be able to have the QT proxies the camera generates to edit offline on my 15"MBP and then once edited relink and output whatever I'd like (with a long render time - but thats ok)

Any ideas? I DO have CS5 on my MBP, would that solve things or still too slow to be able to work with the R3D files on this older unibody?

Thanks again for the help guys
 
From what I understand Scarlet does not do in camera proxies, currently.

You can in theory edit ''quick and simple'' sequences on your machine with Premiere, although you will have to set playback to 1/8 or 1/16 quality to get any idea of what your footage looks like. It will be a headache though. Also, I'm pretty sure Premiere CS5 does not have R3D support though, only Premiere CS5.5 and CS6 do.

It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Are you ingesting in the field and doing some 1-light, slapping together a few clips and outputting? Then you may be ok...

Or are you going to be delivering a full piece to a client? In my opinion with your machine you will probably want to work with proxies if so. And with your machine it will take a while to generate them, depending on how much footage you have shot... could be losing half a day to a day.

I have a fully loaded macbook pro early 2012 with 16gb RAM and that can still be a headache putting together 1-lights and dailies for the editor. Although I'm pushing through about 500 clips on a single timeline in some cases.

Also something to consider is you will be stuck with firewire HDs because you have an early unibody, so no thunderbolt or eSATA.
 
another thing to consider - you could have an atomos ninja or samurai attached to your scarlet (or AJA kipro etc), that way you could be recording in prores also. I haven't used one of those units though so am not familiar if it records at the same time as the camera is recording to SSDs, but it would be stupid if it didn't... maybe someone with actual experience of that could help you if you were considering such an option.
 
pix240 is so easy to use, just turn on the hd sdi flags and it rolls to cheap consumer ssd's when you roll...but only in 2k and no raw... which sort of defeats the purpose of the scarlet, raw, 4k, 3k, slow mos...etc... (you can do slowmos if you roll on a redmag, do playback in camera and roll that playback to the pix240 by rolling on the playback itself from the redmag)

Theres nothing wrong with an F3 though, and you can always rent red stuff too. It really depends on your client needs more then anything. Sure I just bought a Scarlet, but I am still taking that Phantom tech course from Abelcine, and looking to learn other camera workflows, alexa, f65, f3, none of which I have used in any capacity yet...

If your really stuck for money just wait. Nothing wrong with that. Heck man I am booked out the next three months and looking to rent mine as I am on a set that has their camera already, and there is a lot of people in this boat like I am renting cheap. Why marry equipment when you can rent? I just got a Red since my only other camera is a DSLR and I needed a legit one too, and a tax write off....
 
Its all about having the right camera for the job.. And every job is different. I love my Scarlet but its not always the right camera for every job I do. look at the wrk you are doing and think about the kind of work you want to be doing in the future and plan your equipment purchases accordingly. I realize you are doing that and doing your homework regarding R1 and Scarlet. If "Red" is in your future andEpic is not possible then Scarlet is definitely the way to go. R1s rent cheap if you need one.
 
If the proxy files are your hangup...just use RCX-Pro to generate them. Scarlet won't generate them, but a couple of clicks in RCX-Pro and you can have them. If anyone still needs them.
 
Scarlet doesn't make proxies but you can make them in RCX Pro.
It doesn't take a lot of time because these files are just quick reference files that point to the R3D Data, and not actual transcoded self-containing media. it takes seconds.

Performance of those proxies isn't always great though, even on a modern Mac (Low and Medium worked, High and Full got stuttery performance).
I Think performance should be the Same with proxies from a Red one though.
 
Mathieu Ghekiere said:
Scarlet doesn't make proxies but you can make them in RCX Pro.
It doesn't take a lot of time because these files are just quick reference files that point to the R3D Data, and not actual transcoded self-containing media. it takes seconds.

Performance of those proxies isn't always great though, even on a modern Mac (Low and Medium worked, High and Full got stuttery performance).
I Think performance should be the Same with proxies from a Red one though.
Click to expand...

Oh thats awesome to know, I didn't know that at all. That could be a much bigger help in decision. I downloaded some very short (3-5 second) R3D files from RED One MX sensor and popped them into CS5 and they actually worked and played back at 1/8th which wasnt so bad, proxies would be much better I think though for using in FCP (I'm more used to that system than CS5)

I guess its just a matter of budeting the NEEDS vs. the wants. I dont NEED all the extras for a scarlet to work (because its so small) all I need is a brain, mount, battery system, and LCD and im good to go. But RED One I really need handles and all kinds of stuff to make it comfortable to work with...

I guess If I can JUST afford the bare essentials of a scarlet, that would be the nice way to go, form factor wise... I do like buying gear that is upgradeable vs. gear thats essentially passed its prime. I'll keep it updated if I find any other hangups on my decision. Its much more of a money thing than anything else right now.

I love my F3 and it really shoots amazing 2K Slog footage - specially uncompressed 444 - but its a bitch to work with that much data and still only in a 2k world. There is also an F5 coming out soon which is 4K but priced around the EPIC's cost not scarlet. So I guess thats out of the question. Still going to try for scarlet I guess haha
 
Joesef, rather than using the proxies, I suggest you export ProRes LT files at 1/4 res and then link back to your R3Ds or higher res ProRes files later. Proxies work a bit different than they did in the early days and might not be the best option depending on what system you have. 1/4 res should export fairly quickly on a relatively modern Mac.
 
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