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Wow this is not Fair!!! RED EPIC Rentals

Neil Dearman

Neil Dearman

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There are plenty of owner/ops renting for that rate in Los Angeles.

I don't think they really started it.

Rentals in Los Angeles, if you are an owner/op trying to make a buck on the side or a small house that cannot offer every conceivable piece of gear to make you a "one-stop-shop", they are definitely not for the faint of heart.

Supply is much greater than the demand in this part of the world.
 
Ya sucks people should stick to a price, normally people that low ball dont get lot of work anyways so they will be out soon. On the other hand how come no one ever gets mad at people renting $80k optimos for $400 or $500. the lens is worth more then that and many other epic packages.
 
If I could keep my camera rented 24/7 I would be more than happy to rent out for even less. $30k package / $500 days would pay itself off in 2 months of solid rentals. I think $500/600 though is going to be the absolute floor. Rentals generally take about 2-3 hours of back-and forth and if your'e doing a one-day rental that's nearing just my time's worth to set up the rental. I have no idea how they manage to rent out a 5D for $100. You couldn't prep a package, handle paperwork and recheck the inventory on return in that amount of time unless you paid yourself next to nothing for your time.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I have no idea how they manage to rent out a 5D for $100. You couldn't prep a package, handle paperwork and recheck the inventory on return in that amount of time unless you paid yourself next to nothing for your time.
Click to expand...

It isn't worth the time to fill out the insurance claim forms... and you are going to be doing that often.
 
I'm not even in LA, i'm a freelancer in Tampa, and I have to offer mine for $649 a day, I am not a one stop shop though and considering I don't have the best tripod, matte box etc.. I think the price I charge isn't too bad. I wish I could charge more, but the sad thing is everyone looks at borrowlenses.com and uses them as an unfair guideline.. you don't have time to explain to people that you are actually taking care of your gear and offering extra added value that borrowlenses can't. Add to this, everyone seems to think the Epics dropped down to half price last year, when it was more like a 25% discount.

"so what's your epic worth now, like $20K with everything right? Can you do your epic for $200 a day, and do me a 3 day week?".....

"um, no.. but it's clear you've made your mind up on how much the camera is worth, feel free to rent my 5D for $100.. oh what's that, you say you brought a Rebel, and hacked it.. good for you"

I don't have the same amount of competition as LA, but there is still competition here, and because most Epics are owned by freelancers, they are willing to drop their prices, especially as there aren't a wealth of productions happening, it's essentially your way of grabbing what small amount of work there is.. it sorts of balances itself in regards to comparing to LA. I know an ACs with REDs charging $300 a day for them and the camera.. there is no way to compete with that.. i've also heard of DITs doing the same for $500, their services, computer plus an Epic body, it's hard to compete..

So far nobody has rented the camera from me without using me in some regard, whether as DP / Operator / DIT / 2nd AC.. so when I add that rate.. I think what the client gets in return is a fair deal, but at least I add that rate.. I think it's only fair, considering what they are getting.

I agree though.. $600 seems low, especially for a bona fide rental house, but I don't think it's their fault.. they're going to charge as much as they can.. and $600 seems to be the going rate for a basic kit.
 
How much do you feel a basic Epic rental should cost? In Australia you can rent a basic Epic package for $650/day, I think with the supply this is what the market has determined an Epic rental to cost.
 
I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't want to work on a job where they are willing to pay that little. It means they don't care about the product. My clients hire me, and pay my rates because I always deliver. My gear always works. Me and my guys can always solve their problems. If it doesn't I have options. The number one reason high dollar jobs hire people for decent rates is because they can count on them. If you are paying $1500 a day for your crew and all of your other shit, sure, pay $650 a day for a camera package. If you are dropping $20k a day on crew and locations and everything else, rent from a reputable guy and hire a good DP. $20k a day is low budget. Amp it up from there, and it just becomes that much more important that everything works. That's why you don't save money when your $150 a day Data manager erases a card, and your $250 a day gaffer blows up the electricity, and your $250 a day 1st AC cant keep anything in focus. People who are really good at this shit have been doing it for decades, and they are grown ups and have bills. They charge money. It's not the film hobby, it's not the film passion project, it's the film business. There is a lower end market where this shit happens and it's acceptable. Strive to not work there ;-)

Nick
 
That basic EPIC package for $600/day seems pretty reasonable. It's also a package built on false hopes and dreams as it would be difficult to actually shoot with that package. It's just a very basic kit and a rate to match. Very much in line with what a lot of rental houses are charging for a similar kit in the LA area and in my markets as well (Denver / Phoenix).

It's also a free market, people can charge what they want. If you don't like it, don't play their game. Don't partake in the rat-race to the bottom. Instead, elevate your services and offerings to justify a higher rate. Rental houses hold their rates higher than most indies because they have a much broader selection of gear and the good houses also have good support and customer service. They have depth to their offerings and can swap out a camera or gear if a production runs into issues. Hard to do that when renting from an indie operator or small boutique with only one camera and limited equipment selection, so people will expect to pay less...

If you can work a camera an average of 4 days a week all year long at $300/day, that is a lot more better than charging $500/day and only averaging 2 days a week for the same year... It's about ROI, revenue, income, turning a profit. Nobody is in this to stabilize a market or keep other camera owners feeling all warm and fuzzy.
 
Also, $600/day is higher than freakout posts about camera rental rates, like, a year ago. So, viral marketing technique here, or is this supposed to be encouragement since this "not fair" rate is actually higher than the "lowball" rates people were upset about a year ago?

From 6/12/2012: Epic/Scarlet packages renting for $500/day
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ocket-Change&p=1028689&viewfull=1#post1028689

Sorry buddy, this is life. Dry hire rental of camera is not a high margin business. Move up the food chain, or you're someone else's lunch.
 
I thought that i read somewhere in this forum (not sure which thread) that there are some rental house who throw in camera for practically "free" included all lightings, etc.

R
 
but do they have the customer service the big rental houses have?
do they let you have a check out, or do you just pick up and go?
if the camera goes down, is there a second one ready to go for free, with shipping if you're out of town?
etc, etc, etc.

alot of companies out here in NYC are just throwing out cameras for cheap. And while everyone bites at it in the beginning, after a few rentals with those places, they end up going back to the established houses, where they built a relationship with them...and get deals as well (that might end up being same in price)
 
I can't help but see free market competition as an entirely positive thing. Many years ago cameras were so expensive that only studios owned them and therefore had a huge influence over their design, manufacture and global availability. There was a clear oligopoly, today RED is all about democratising the camera market. Owning a camera is possible for a hard working person, then it's talent that elevates that person to being able to charge large sums for their skill and expertise. Sure you also get better kit rates the better kit you have but it's your skill and choices that are paid for and not just the kit.

The camera rental game is mostly no longer a place where it's acceptable to know nothing about kit and build a company on borrowed money and then make a quick buck by adding a percentage on your rental rates to pay for it. I say amen to that!
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
That basic EPIC package for $600/day seems pretty reasonable. It's also a package built on false hopes and dreams as it would be difficult to actually shoot with that package. It's just a very basic kit and a rate to match. Very much in line with what a lot of rental houses are charging for a similar kit in the LA area and in my markets as well (Denver / Phoenix).

It's also a free market, people can charge what they want. If you don't like it, don't play their game. Don't partake in the rat-race to the bottom. Instead, elevate your services and offerings to justify a higher rate. Rental houses hold their rates higher than most indies because they have a much broader selection of gear and the good houses also have good support and customer service. They have depth to their offerings and can swap out a camera or gear if a production runs into issues. Hard to do that when renting from an indie operator or small boutique with only one camera and limited equipment selection, so people will expect to pay less...

If you can work a camera an average of 4 days a week all year long at $300/day, that is a lot more better than charging $500/day and only averaging 2 days a week for the same year... It's about ROI, revenue, income, turning a profit. Nobody is in this to stabilize a market or keep other camera owners feeling all warm and fuzzy.
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I agree. It seems like people here are totally unrealistic about how many Epics are out there (supply) vs the demand for rentals. Most people that work regularly - and even a lot of people that don't work regularly - can afford to just buy one. So there's a glut of cameras out there and not that many renters.

And with normal use there isn't that much wear and tear. Not like the old days where there was a fussy tape transport to worry about - It's all solid state and highly integrated electronic boards that should last years.

And consider that enterprise will rent me a $30,000 car for $40/day - that does get serious wear and tear, needs cleaning, check in and out, overhead, etc.

With the available supply it seems to me $600/day for a basic Epic kit is probably closer to top end than low ball.

Even $375/day for 50 days a year for two years on a $25000 camera kit gives you all of your money back and a 25% gross profit per year. And if a professional solid state product can't handle 100 days use in two years there is something wrong.

It always amazes me that owner/operators that can figure out that a high quality $25K camera isn't a big financial risk or investment - so make their own buy vs. rent decision - can't see that potential renters can figure it out too and aren't going to pay a daily rate that pays off the camera in 30 or 40 days. (Or be totally unaware that 3 or 4 days of that same daily rate could buy a BMD Cinema cam - 2.5K raw/Prores/DNXHD - for less than $2K)
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
... It's about ROI, revenue, income, turning a profit. Nobody is in this to stabilize a market or keep other camera owners feeling all warm and fuzzy.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's a free world (well not really but at least you're free to charge whatever you want to rent your camera). I'm always surprised when people freak out over someone offering a cheap rental. If one guy renting his camera for cheap is a threat to your business then you should take a look at how you're doing business.

Besides, have you ever dealt with some of the real low ballers? I have and let me tell you it's usually not pretty. When I need a 2nd camera, I get sucked in by the low rate advertised and usually I pay for it in terms of aggravation and more time spent picking up basic things they don't include.

Most of the time it's hard to just get a hold of them. They don't return emails, phone calls. You have to go to a 2nd place to get another SSD, then a 3rd place to get a few more batteries. You pick up the equipment and it's not in good shape. One time I rented a R1 for a very low rate and when I touched the Pl mount it was so loose it spun around like a top and I thought it was going to fall off. When I said the Pl mount is loose, the back focus needs to be set, the guy said "what's that?". He had no idea what back focus was. He was just a guy who bought a camera and rented it out for cheap. He knew nothing about the R1 or anything about cameras for that matter. And of course, I couldn't pick up the camera until 7pm for some bs reason so it was too late for me to take it to a rental house to get properly collimated so I had to take the time to do it at home at night when I wanted to prep other things.

Then often they have ridiculous stipulations on pick up and return times. One guy said it'd be a 3 day rental if I wanted to pick up the camera in the afternoon the day before my shoot and return it the next morning. The only way I could pay a one day rental for my one day shoot was to have him deliver it to my set in the morning, and then he'd come and pick it up at the end of the day.

And of course, quite often the low baller renters and small rental houses have it in their rental agreements that the renter has to pay full rental rates for each day the camera is in the shop getting repaired in the event you damage it on your shoot. So if I damage it and the camera is at Red for 2 weeks getting fixed I have to pay the full day rate for 2 weeks. That alone is a reason to pay a couple hundred bucks more and rent from a rental house. None of the bigger rental houses have this clause as they have loss of rental income coverage in their own insurance policy.

I rent out my Epic from time to time, not much but I do, and I've really learned a lot from renting from other individual owner/ops. If you're reasonable, answer the phone and emails and are nice to deal with - that alone should get you some business.

What someone charges to rent their camera doesn't shock me. It's how hard those same people make it to do business with them. So yeah, there are cheap rates out there but be prepared to pay in other ways.
 
This might sound like platitudes but:

skill without means is nothing. Means without skill is nothing. It's not until you put the technology with the skill that value is created.

As Jeff Kilgroe says above, renting a 'basic' Epic kit will actually hinder the customer because it's dysfunctional. In the same way, owning kit without skill to market as a package is not going to cover your cost of doing business because of the accessibility of 'good enough' alternatives. And for example, I believe there are more dollars made from 5D feature films than Scarlet feature films - what does that look like to the unskilled potential customer who just watched FRANCE'S HA in a cinema?
 
I stopped renting my Epic entirely. Packages with 17" Panasonic, matte box, filters, and 25/75 are renting for $500/day on a 1.5 to 3 day week.
The Red One / Mx gave a reasonable rental return but my Epic not so much.
 
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