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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Would you take this deal if it were offered?

Would you take this deal if it were offered?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 40.0%

  • Total voters
    5

MadamImAdam

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I think we've all seen this pattern before:

1. Company announces an exciting new product at a great price.

2. Company estimates they'll be shipping this new product in X amount of time, which feels like "soon."

3. Because of the attractive features, price and estimated delivery date, people hold off on buying a competitor's product and wait for the promised new, better, cheaper product. Many of these waiters would not make this decision if the estimated time were 2X or 3X, but X doesn't sound too bad.

4. X amount of time passes. No delivery. Then another X amount of time passes. By the time the product shows up, it has been anywhere from 2X to 10X the original estimated period of time. If most buyers could go back in time and get an accurate estimate of the wait, they would definitely have made other plans. But the way the company played it, it always felt like "soon."

I would guess just about everyone here knows this isn't an exaggeration of reality. If you don't, just look at some old threads here. Heck, look at any thread that announces a new product along with a time estimate.

Perhaps it is impolite of me to point this out, but companies benefit when they do this to us. There is a strong incentive to estimate a delivery date that feels like "soon" even if they know -- or should know -- that there is a very low chance of that date being met. Companies can prevent people from buying a competing product if they can make people feel there is a substantial chance that a better one will be available "soon," or maybe just a little later than "soon."

It's not the fault of any company that it's difficult to create innovative new products from scratch, or that these endeavors usually take a long time. No company deserves blame for this reality. But what about denying this reality? Do people deserve whatever they get for being naive enough to believe that an estimated delivery date for an innovative product had any meaning whatsoever? Shouldn't these suckers have at least 3X'd the wait time in their heads instead of whining about the inevitable?

I would agree that whining about false estimates is as useless as denying that most estimates prove to be false.

But you know what would be better than this cynicism? If we had a way to gauge the company's confidence in their own estimate. There's surely a roughly quantifiable confidence level there behind closed doors -- we just don't know what it is. Does the CEO, in his heart of hearts, believe there's a 1% chance of meeting the deadline, or is it more like 50%? There's a big difference there. But how could we determine which it is?

Here's one idea: Financial incentive. You say that your $3000 product will be available in 30 weeks? Great. I'll give you $4000 for one right now. If you deliver the product to me by your deadline, you make an extra $1000 pure profit. But for every week that you miss your deadline, you have to send me $100 -- until you actually deliver the product to me.

A company with strong confidence that its stated deadline is realistic would take this deal in a heartbeat. A company that actually knew deep down that 60 weeks or 90 weeks was a much more likely estimate would never take this deal.

How could we find out how much confidence the company feels? They set the honored-estimate price. Are they asking for $4000 or $10,000? Now you know how they feel about their deadline.

Thoughts? Do we have a right to expect a company to give us a sober, thought-out, honest estimate, or should we always assume that we are being given false information? (Not necessarily outright lies, perhaps hope-fueled delusion. But the result is the same -- false information.)

Would you respect a company more if they offered the deal I outline above? Would you consider taking the deal?
 
Yep...GFY.

Look at the big picture.

Many people thought the "Company" couldn't deliver what they were promising a short three years ago. The "Company" was laughed at. They had minor delays... Now there are 5000 cameras circulating this planet.

There are no guarantees.

If you "want it now", go in to a store and buy any number of "available" options off the shelf.
 
Lol, Madam.

Don't plan your projects around cameras that might get delayed. It's as simple as that. Be conservative in projecting when a camera will come out. Even if Camera X comes out in time for your project, will the workflow and accessories and everything else be ready? Better to err on the side of caution when planning projects that use new cameras and technology.
 
Well let's see. I guess I'd really rather wait for the powers that be at the dominant, well-established companies to decide when they feel the time is right to gift us with their offerings at whatever price they determine is "fair" thinking that this is the way things have to be. Yeah, that's what I'd prefer. Capitalism is alive and well in America, let's hope it stays that way.
 
Fun thing is that RED did exectly that.
All us early adpoters got a bonus...

So, yes, I took the deal, enjoyed the ride and took the bonus.
And the hilarious part is that we were offered this bonus without really having any claim to it.

AND we got an extra market-advantage...

What company are you thinking of, btw?
 
It is not that uncommon for Sony ET AL to announce new products at NAB 9 months to a year ahead of ship date too.
 
yet another boring hypotetical poll
 
Where is the GFY choice?

lol :)

I just tried to edit the poll to add that choice, but I can't.

And thanks for the encouragement!

For those who are taking this as a direct attack on Red, please grow up, will ya? I mentioned no company by name, and in fact generally implied others if you read the OP ( :cough: lens mount :cough: ). I actually don't know the facts on the Red One rollout, but I do remember that Jim Jannard went out of his way to make sure that people understood the uncertain nature of developing technology.

Obviously Red has product announcements coming, but so does Nikon, and so do plenty of other companies. This isn't about Red. This is about how we as customers deal with one result of the warfare going on between companies in this industry -- namely, the absolute inability to know if a projected release date is off by 10% or 10,000%, especially when every company is trying to trump every other company with their statements of intent (i.e., "product announcements")*.

Is the way-super-cool-game-changing product that is currently an idea really going to become available in [insert short period of time]? Or is it going to be twice as long? Three times? More? I'd like to make these orders-of-magnitude guesses with a little more information -- and that applies to all companies announcing ideas/plans that I like.

That said, I'll admit: A maverick like Jim Jannard is far more likely to try a customer-friendly and transparency-encouraging proposal like mine. He's upended standard practice elsewhere in this business, why not the standard practice of overly...um...optimistic release-date estimates? If he can make obsolescence obsolete, how about this?

*In fact, the more elaborate these statements of intent get, the more reason there is to doubt they will become shipping products quickly. Yet we hear people talking about these currently hypothetical products as if they'll be in hand in a couple of months. There's nothing wrong with great technology taking time to get to market. There is something wrong with deluding yourself.
 
Adding that it's interesting that nobody responded to this...

1. Company announces an exciting new product at a great price.

2. Company estimates they'll be shipping this new product in X amount of time, which feels like "soon."

3. Because of the attractive features, price and estimated delivery date, people hold off on buying a competitor's product and wait for the promised new, better, cheaper product. Many of these waiters would not make this decision if the estimated time were 2X or 3X, but X doesn't sound too bad.

4. X amount of time passes. No delivery. Then another X amount of time passes. By the time the product shows up, it has been anywhere from 2X to 10X the original estimated period of time. If most buyers could go back in time and get an accurate estimate of the wait, they would definitely have made other plans. But the way the company played it, it always felt like "soon."

...with something akin to, "Yeah, I hate it when companies do that."

Does "Off Topic" actually mean "The Masochists Forum"?
 
I thought I did... Only thing is that 4x time didn't really happen, it came a bit later though, andwe got compensated.

But I guess that's irrellevant...

G
 
People already vote with their pocketbooks. Birger lost many mount orders because of a lack of customer service (which seemed to improve with that sort of feedback...), but he may also re-gain customers, myself included, on the strength of the quality of his product. No gimmicks required.

You're not thinking of the costs of administering such a plan...tracking these issues and cutting checks and on and on...means there would be substantially less "pure profit" left, should the manufacturer even meet the deadline.
 
Dear Madam,

I really have to say that after reading all of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you are here doing market research in the guise of being a lost and confused independant filmmaker...I don`t buy it for a minute...You are here for a reason and its not to learn about or buy a Red One Camera...

Sorry Buddy the jig is up.

Dogday.
 
Imagine if Microsoft would adapt this policy. Wow - I might finally consider buying Windows 7, lol.

I was just going to write that Microsoft has done this forever. A lot of companies do. I think it might be a little tougher for Public companies to do it without really delivering. Could be considered a forward looking statement that affects stock values. Private companies can probably say whatever they want - hence RED can stoke the rumor mill and have a lot of fun with it. That's not to say they don't intend to do what they say. They've readily admitted many things they thought could do have been much tougher than anticipated.
 
Personally, I would rather wait the extra time for a product that actually worked instead of one that doesn't have all the kinks worked out. I mean, take a computer OS for example... who REALLY wants to be the first person to use a new OS that is likely to have a lot of bugs and issues and no supporting software only because a company met their expected release date. Just some food for thought, but I would rather get something later than expected when it works like it should... instead of suffer the consequences of a premature release (giggle). :)

Viva La RED Revolution!
 
Yeah, I definitely don't mind waiting for a company to get it right before releasing the product.

My beef is most definitely not about the wait -- it's about the estimate. There's all the incentive in the world for companies to give unrealistically rosy estimates, especially right now as things are really heating up on the features/price front. But there's virtually no mechanism for us, the ones being li-- er, underestimated to to put a check on this behavior.

It's virtually an accepted industry practice, and frankly I don't see why it should be.

A company could really distinguish itself by giving a release-date estimate accompanied by some demonstration of how much it was willing to stand by that estimate. The other companies would immediately become suspect -- why aren't they willing to back up their rosy estimates? The company standing by its claims could point out the competition's failure to do the same, and reap a very significant reward -- in the form of many, many more preorders.

I've also thought it would be interesting if a company with a shipping product -- let's say, oh, a matte box -- called the bluff of an upstart competitor with a hypothetical less expensive product on its b.s. by offering a rebate if the competitor actually delivered the product on time. In other words, buy my matte box today and I'll rebate you the price difference if the Rose-Colored Matte Box actually ships on the date it's being promised.

Very few rebates would actually have to be issued.
 
Dear Madam,

I really have to say that after reading all of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you are here doing market research in the guise of being a lost and confused independant filmmaker...I don`t buy it for a minute...You are here for a reason and its not to learn about or buy a Red One Camera...

Sorry Buddy the jig is up.

Dogday.

This is an awesome theory. Please pursue it. :detective2:

I think you need a motive asap. Who would benefit from the things I've said here on the forum? They would be the ones pulling my strings.

I hope you'll keep me updated.
 
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