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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Working for free to land a bigger job

How was your relationship with the director, what's he like if the producer is just able to shoot and edit it himself? No cinematography required?
 
That's the first thing I think if people pull such things, especially directors, if they let anyone just take a random digital camera and shoot it. In my world, they don't need cinematography as such, they just need a camera operator.
 
I get to be on both sides of this equation. I'm a gun for hire (DIT, Cam Op, Editor) and I'm a producer. I've worked on projects for free like everyone else has, usually with the understanding that I'm doing it because I like the project and want to help see it do well, or perhaps I have some other agenda, such as testing new equipment and a real project with less pressure. I almost NEVER do a project for free in the hope that the next one will land the big bucks. Most projects don't land the big bucks. So it has to be for a reason I can justify. Now as someone entering the business, the agenda is much different. You need to get on projects any way you can, because you meet people, form relationships, build a reel, etc. The blood, sweat, and tears pay off because you gain experience, and you eventually gain a value. If you are in school, or just out of school, you MUST be willing to work for free. Don't expect to walk right into a job. Although, you can get lucky. I did. I got right into a production company in a paid position right out of college. But I'm probably the exception more than the rule.

Now as a producer, I have the hardest time asking people to work for free. On commercials, and corporate work I almost never have free labor on set. On independent films, spec work, etc. that's a different story. These are good opportunities to bring in students or people looking to get a start in the business. Free is not bad, it's a mutual understanding. These projects usually have very low to no budget and need the help and the people get a good experience out of it. And sometimes it leads to using those people on the paid gigs.

There has to be mutual respect. You can't take advantage of people. Asking a 25 year veteran DP to shoot your commercial or movie at an insulting rate is just wrong, unless the DP comes on for other reasons such as a long-standing relationship that allows him to take one for the team if the budget is low. Otherwise, we must treat these situations professionally. Most people NEED money. They need to put food on the table. They probably have kids to take care of, college to pay for, mortgage, insurance bills, etc. Asking them to take time out of their schedules, to work for free means less time with those families and less money to take care of them. A lot different than if you are living in your parents house, eating their food, and maybe even still getting an allowance of some sort. Sure, those people can work for free, or very low wages. But at some point, they may be in the same boat as the rest of us, with bills to pay.

So, we need to keep in mind as the technology gets cheaper (DSLRs), and it's easier to get projects made, that doesn't mean the cost of living gets cheaper. So, if you are a young filmmaker or run a small production company understand that lowballing may win you clients sometimes, but great service, an understanding of business practices, and maintaining a high level of integrity is what allows you to sustain clients. Yes, we are in a tough economy. Clients are often cutting budgets, sometimes significantly. I get that. But as an industry, we can not allow ourselves to become bottomfeeders. It's not where we want to be. We want to be paid appropriately for the quality of product we offer. You will find that the less you charge, the more ragged you are run. Clients will expect more for less. This is a recipe for disaster.
 
I organised some gear for freebie for some fella's, their production co ordinater rings me up and reckons we didn't give them a BNC cable and can they have a drum since we'd made a mistake. I cycle a cable to them to find that they did have one all along, they just wanted a longer one.

They just needed to ask, not accuse my prep techs of making a mistake.

I'll thus be cynical next time some one asks me for a favour. Why do the few spoil it for the many? Shame on them.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
But as an industry, we can not allow ourselves to become bottomfeeders. It's not where we want to be. We want to be paid appropriately for the quality of product we offer. You will find that the less you charge, the more ragged you are run. Clients will expect more for less. This is a recipe for disaster.
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Your entire post nailed it for me, but these last few sentences should be posted everywhere for all to memorize.
 
Cant count the free crap ive done for the better future gig...Ive not stopped doing stuff like that but i stop them from spewing that babble as it comes from there mouth. I do free stuff cause i want to stay creating and let the chips fall where they may...
 
If this happened to me, I would invoice for equipment/services rendered in full. The chances of getting paid are small to non-existant. I would write off the loss on my taxes, consider it a learning experience (education usually costs something), and move on. The entertainment industry certainly has its share of promoters and slime-balls, and they usually have a well established history of being so. Regardless of the project, I usually ask around about the people I am about to embark on a project with and do a "personality and character check" so I have an idea what to expect. I also trust my intuition, and it is amazing accurate.

I personally refuse give up my personal power and let some scumbag ruin by day just because they have too much greed and no personal integrity. Money comes and money goes, but every minute that ticks by is one less I will have on this planet. I personally am not going to waste any of my remaining minutes (and I expect to have many) being pissed off or trying to get even. Too much fun to be had elsewhere. Just my 2 cents.
 
Elsie N said:
Ahem... (cough) .... haaaaaakkkkk.... ptooie... ahem..A one and a two and a three...tap, tap, tap

He took my trailerrrrr and gave me a reama...
My trailer was film(like)... and no-ot from Fema

Now he's sittin' prettieeeee, with two hundred gra-andddd,
I suspect he'll be ba-ack... askin' me to give him a ha-annnnd,

I'll give him a part-of-onnnnnne, my mi-id-ul fing-er,
Then I'll kick him in the buttttt, so that he-e won't ling-er.
____________________________________________________________
That's all I've got in the way of lyrics but if it needs to be longer imagine some fiddles or guitars, or even banjos as instrumentals.
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Nice!
 
I have good news for you. Its actually against Federal Law to work for free. The producer has to pay you minimum wage. A Producer I've worked with was notorious for begging freebies from people desperate for credits or contacts. He pissed off someone on the crew who then sued him for those wages. The court ordered an audit of this guy's films from the last three years and ordered him to make restitution to the tune of nearly $20,000 including fines. There were several movies that he made, all low budget $200K features, so that took a chuck out of his wallet, but it also acted as a market correction. He obeys the letter of the law now, if not the spirit.

So the next time someone asks you to work for free, tell them this story. In fact, tell everyone you know this story. I'm all for helping make someone's career, but the Pro Bono work has got to end. Capitalists hoping to enter the market with a product can't expect to rely on socialism or slavery to manufacture that product. It undermines the moral authority of the producer who expects to be paid for the content when that content was created on the backs of people who were not compensated in the most minimal sense. It even undermines Capitalism.

Look for an magazine article soon from me about this, as soon as I can find someone brave enough to publish it.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I have good news for you. Its actually against Federal Law to work for free. The producer has to pay you minimum wage. A Producer I've worked with was notorious for begging freebies from people desperate for credits or contacts. He pissed off someone on the crew who then sued him for those wages. The court ordered an audit of this guy's films from the last three years and ordered him to make restitution to the tune of nearly $20,000 including fines. There were several movies that he made, all low budget $200K features, so that took a chuck out of his wallet, but it also acted as a market correction. He obeys the letter of the law now, if not the spirit.
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I know of a company that had to pay up in a similar situation. They had a couple graphic & web design guys I know do a web site for them, which the guys did as a favor on the promise of doing two other larger sites for this same group shortly after. They had a contract for the larger two sites, which they signed, but the company promising the work never executed and returned the contract -- so it was never completed. The jobs never happened, so the designers took this company to court over payment for the freebie web site. They won in court pretty easily and were compensated for the site and for their legal expenses.

It seems to me that more people work for free in creative industries than anywhere else. I suppose that's the artistic side of these people coming out where they feel the need to create something more than they feel the need to get paid for "working". I really don't understand why people do this or feel they need to. There's a lot of pressure in many markets where people feel they need to undercut the competition just to get known or build a reel. There are more ways to build a reel than whoring yourself out for free.

When was the last time you heard of an auto mechanic, plumber or carpenter working for free? Of course, you can always do work as part of a barter -- as in trade for ownership in the project or you can do it as a favor or gift to someone. For example, the tradesmen I mentioned above can and will often help a friend fix their car or a neighbor rebuild a deck. That's fine. I've done free projects here and there for people I know or in situations where I feel I'm doing a good deed or getting something of equal value in return.

But when Joe Producer calls up and starts begging for favors and making empty promises like future work or whatnot, I just tell them that if they don't want to pay my rates, then I don't have time to deal with it. And that's mostly true. If I'm going to work for free, I have plenty of pet projects of my own to work on!
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I have good news for you. Its actually against Federal Law to work for free. The producer has to pay you minimum wage. A Producer I've worked with was notorious for begging freebies from people desperate for credits or contacts. He pissed off someone on the crew who then sued him for those wages. The court ordered an audit of this guy's films from the last three years and ordered him to make restitution to the tune of nearly $20,000 including fines. There were several movies that he made, all low budget $200K features, so that took a chuck out of his wallet, but it also acted as a market correction. He obeys the letter of the law now, if not the spirit.

So the next time someone asks you to work for free, tell them this story. In fact, tell everyone you know this story. I'm all for helping make someone's career, but the Pro Bono work has got to end. Capitalists hoping to enter the market with a product can't expect to rely on socialism or slavery to manufacture that product. It undermines the moral authority of the producer who expects to be paid for the content when that content was created on the backs of people who were not compensated in the most minimal sense. It even undermines Capitalism.

Look for an magazine article soon from me about this, as soon as I can find someone brave enough to publish it.
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Talk to Tim Wilson at creativecow.net (they have a printed magazine for the arts) - maybe that would make for a good addition to a logistics and business of the industry type of themed issue. I'd read that article, but I'd want to know the realities of it... 'cause I think you can do whatever you want without asking for money for it. People do that all the time. if you ask your friends to help you move and paint your house, but don't pay them.... you're not breaking any laws are you? Why is it different if they're moving your equipment and painting your sets?
 
The only freebies I have ever participated in were in kind donations to non profits or for local political campaigns.
For creative film projects, I like the idea of everyone who donates time participating in the gross returns in proportion to job scope. Might do it just for fun and credit with friends if it doesn't sell.
 
Mark Allen said:
Talk to Tim Wilson at creativecow.net (they have a printed magazine for the arts) - maybe that would make for a good addition to a logistics and business of the industry type of themed issue. I'd read that article, but I'd want to know the realities of it... 'cause I think you can do whatever you want without asking for money for it. People do that all the time. if you ask your friends to help you move and paint your house, but don't pay them.... you're not breaking any laws are you? Why is it different if they're moving your equipment and painting your sets?
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It's a difference between private and commercial and what is being created. If someone helps out for free to help someone move or paint their house, it's a personal favor. If someone works for free on a film set, it becomes different because their work is being used to produce a commercial product or something that can promote a business.

Ultimately, for someone to come back demanding payment for free work, there needs to be some other promise that was broken -- ie: future work. Because in the end, it still comes down to a choice by those who are doing the work and they did in fact decide whether or not to offer services freely.

As an example, if someone calls up a web designer and says they want a web site, but can't afford much and the designer says, I'll do it for free since I"m not real busy right now, maybe you could return the favor some day... There would really be no recourse if that designer ever wanted to be paid for it later. Practices like this can often fall into the realm of self-promotion and advertising. Expenses for creating the free web site can be accounted for and even partially written-off at tax time, if the designer has enough taxable revenue that year to weigh against it.

However, if someone called up that web designer and said they needed a new web site, but can't afford much at the moment. And says whoever accepts the job that, by doing this one as a freebie, they will get a larger corporate site design contract later, which will more than compensate. Then the designer has every right to seek compensation for the former, if the latter corporate contract never happens. Business cases like this are hashed out in our courts every day...
 
Just for clarification: I was posing my question in the sense of the idea that is illegal to work for free at all. The delineation made by both followup posters is that it is still considered illegal to break a verbal or written agreement that working for free will be paid off in a future manner.
 
Vance Colvig said:
If this happened to me, I would invoice for equipment/services rendered in full. The chances of getting paid are small to non-existant. I would write off the loss on my taxes, consider it a learning experience (education usually costs something), and move on.
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Just curious- how do you itemize an unpaid invoice to write-off? I have a few outstanding invoices that I don't expect to have returned at this point, and would love to know how to organize them come tax time.
 
christopher witzke said:
Came close to listing mine yesterday after I found out about a trailer I shot for free to help get investment funds for the production of the entire film... with the agreement that I would shoot at my normal rate... that the producer did get the $200k but decided to buy an HVX and a macpro and shoot and edit it himself.... nice huh?

But woke up this morning... deleted the trailer footage from my RAID... had a latte.... and now I feel fine.

Now I'm thinking of writing a country song about a filmmaker getting used.... any ideas for lyrics? What rhymes with 4k?


MOD's NOTE: This and the following posts were moved from another (unrelated) thread that dealt with selling R1s.
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Oh my god!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyYTRvEN_OM&sns=em

I just found the revised trailer this guy did.... My work is the first part of the trailer all the way to the slide transition.... I can't believe this guy thinks there is no difference between the production value of what I did for him and what he did with his hvx. Looks like he couldn't even see when the lights were in the pictures on the wall! I feel redeemed!

I do realize that what I shot and edited for him is lame as well.... I had no idea what crap I was getting involved with. I'd only had my red for a few weeks and was itching to shoot anything.... And I guess no matter how lame. To me, the only redeeming footage I could use is the bus scene.
 
christopher witzke said:
Oh my god!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyYTRvEN_OM&sns=em

I just found the revised trailer this guy did.... My work is the first part of the trailer all the way to the slide transition.... I can't believe this guy thinks there is no difference between the production value of what I did for him
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The titles are pretty ironic considering how he was dishonest with you -

"they had a selfish mission with nothing to lose"
&
"An immature plot to raise business capital... ruined by a rushed plan"

(Guess he's not paying a director, writer, editor or actors either. Or location sound. Or sound editor. Or composer. This is tied for the worst trailer I've ever seen.)
 
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