Working as a freelance DP, how to get started?

[Rob Ruffo]

Stephen Speilberg, Stanley Kubrick, Frank Capra, Bernardo Bertolucci, Quentin Tarantino, James Cameron, and Alfred Hitchcock.

None of them attended film school except Speilberg, but he didn't get his "degree" until 2002 (35 years after he started), so I put him on the list I would argue that success is not as rare as Rob claims, and there are many skilled professionals in our trade without a degree in film or even a college degree at all. The great part about this industry is that if you are awesome at what you do, nobody cares about a piece of paper with a stamp on it.

However, I do know many people who have landed good jobs because someone from their school hooked them up. I also know many super talented people who attended film school and loved it. There are always two sides to the coin.

I'm not arguing that nobody should ever go to film school. I think it is a great way to learn the business, but its not the only way. Its a personal choice Matt. Whatever you choose to do it is the right decision, because in this case there is no right or wrong. Give it your all and you are on your way. Good luck

Frank Capra et. all are from another generation when a high school degree put you in the middle class. Like I said, any degree will do, but a University degree of some kind will change you in good ways.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Thanks all, this community is great and the advice has been really helpful. (With the exception of Rob's asinine quote, as has been rightly mentioned.) I DEFINITELY don't come from money and I've worked plenty of minimum-wage (or less!) jobs to buy this gear.

While I am heading back to school in the fall (this whole idea of freelancing was spawned more by realizing I had the gear to freelance than any legitimate desire to), I'm planning to do some gripping in the interim and will take this advice to heart.

I value education (I didn't say film degree, I said DEGREE - general) and thus I'm asinine? In this case yes, Canada must be a different culture because I can't think of anyone here who would object to the valuing of formal education.

Here's another bit of advice - watch out about calling people asinine.

 

[Robert Frank]

funny.. i have never ONCE been asked if I do or do not have a degree..
in this industry

My experience too. Although on occasion I have had an intern ask me how I learned what I know.

It's not they who know, it's you who knows. A degree changes how you think. That said, any degree will do - does not have to be film.

It sure can change how you think. Not always in ways you may realize. I've seen people get more rigid in their thinking and with some financial success express an arrogance in thinking that their way was the right way.

Having grown up in the NYC metro area I saw how so many of the people I knew lost much of their individuality after being immersed in the corporate culture which became an extension of their university experience.

I also grew up around many artists, musicians and writers who were most creative, ingenious and innovative people I knew.

Sweeping generalizations are just limited belief systems.

 

[Matt W.]

I value education (I didn't say film degree, I said DEGREE - general) and thus I'm asinine? In this case yes, Canada must be a different culture because I can't think of anyone here who would object to the valuing of formal education.

Here's another bit of advice - watch out about calling people asinine.

No, the other Rob! From the first page! Not you! I really don't want this discussion to be about school, I was more interested in how to develop connections quickly in a new market and how to market oneself for freelance work, but yeah I think a college education is perfectly cool.

 

[Philip Allister Anderson]

Personally I think school is very important. I have two bachelors degrees and am in the process of completing a masters degree in film. The masters has taken a bit longer than I thought because I was able to work for a union production company and decided to do that for a few years before completing a final documentary which will finalize the degree. If you are looking to go to school then one of the traditional high profile film schools would be advantageous. Along with the education about film theory you will receive you will also make friends with other filmmakers, some of whom will be producers and directors. I have been working as a camera assistant for the last three years. I have just recently begun to operate union stuff and d.p. independent projects. I expect that I will make less money for a couple of years as a transitioning operator and d.p. than I did as an A.C. As far as rates go. In my area, a camera assisant should expect $500 a day for 10 hours. A D.P. should expect $1000 a day for 10 hours. Sometimes you take lower paying stuff when cash is thin, but you should always strive for a livable wage. Not to be antagonistic but when people drastically underbid projects they hurt the industry for everyone. Calculate what it takes to do the job, pay your bills, and live a decent life. Your rate should be based on that. Good luck. Have patience. The road to becoming a credible D.P. is one that should take decades not months.

 

[Matt W.]

I'm not competitive for the real "top schools" (though I did get an interview with USC, which was then revoked), but I'm loving FSU's program and may well end up there.

I don't feel at all guilty about under-bidding, since I know others will always go lower. I turned down a gig for $50/day to DP with camera and gear and someone else quickly took it.

You can see from my reel that I roughly know what I'm doing and yet I offer up my services, and a full kit of lights and camera, for $50/day or $100/day and get a response or two back a month for a few days shooting and it's frustrating. I'd rather have steady work at $100/day than ask more than I'm worth. Neither option sounds good, though, hence going back for that MFA and then planning on a career as a grip to start with. I feel like I entered this industry just the wrongest way and am going for a second chance now.

It's been a weird road for me since I DPed my first feature when I was like 22 or something? It didn't look great but it got cable play and the distributors loved the look for some reason. And since then my career has been straight downhill; all the while I've learned how bad my technique really is compared with where I want it to be, so no fun anywhere.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm not competitive for the real "top schools" (though I did get an interview with USC, which was then revoked), but I'm loving FSU's program and may well end up there.

I don't feel at all guilty about under-bidding, since I know others will always go lower. I turned down a gig for $50/day to DP with camera and gear and someone else quickly took it.

You can see from my reel that I roughly know what I'm doing and yet I offer up my services, and a full kit of lights and camera, for $50/day or $100/day and get a response or two back a month for a few days shooting and it's frustrating. I'd rather have steady work at $100/day than ask more than I'm worth. Neither option sounds good, though, hence going back for that MFA and then planning on a career as a grip to start with. I feel like I entered this industry just the wrongest way and am going for a second chance now.

It's been a weird road for me since I DPed my first feature when I was like 22 or something? It didn't look great but it got cable play and the distributors loved the look for some reason. And since then my career has been straight downhill; all the while I've learned how bad my technique really is compared with where I want it to be, so no fun anywhere.

Again Matt, it is a fact of sales that price is the least important factor for getting a customer. The most important is trust. A very low price will erode trust, AND put less money in your pocket.

Imagine this - I try to sell you a diamond ring for $20 - wouldn't you assume that ring was fishy? Now I try to sell you one for maybe 15-25% less than most jewelry stores. Now you only think it's a good deal, not some kind of scam. There are many examples of people enjoying higher volume when their price went up in marketing history. With low prices you will only get clients who are broke, not clients looking to hire someone great and eager and hard working. By definition there are few broke clients because they are not successful so they don't do much.

I would never hire for example a $50 a day A.C. Paying my crew that low makes me look bad to my client, makes me feel bad. I would assume someone that cheap was not very good. However, if an AC did not charge me overtime if a shoot got into trouble, (there's that 15% or so again) I would appreciate it.

Stop competing on price, start competing on other factors. I would add that people undercutting their competitors get singled out for badmouthing here. Many rental suppliers will not rent them gear - there are many other forms of punishment. By destroying the market you are only making enemies and - destroying the market.

Your lack of self-confidence is hurting other professionals in your area by bringing down prices. Grow up, get over it, charge normal rates.

No one has ever gotten respect by being the cheapest in town, only by being the best.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

I value education (I didn't say film degree, I said DEGREE - general) and thus I'm asinine? In this case yes, Canada must be a different culture because I can't think of anyone here who would object to the valuing of formal education.

Here's another bit of advice - watch out about calling people asinine.

I wouldn't say the culture is different in Canada than the US when it comes to getting and education for the most part. I know that if I ever even think about not finishing college my parents would murder me and bury me in the back yard. And I know thats very much how it is with everybody I know.. I'm still in college because I found that I like a lot of things and I've had many majors and my girlfriend is mad at me for still being here and wished I had graduated on time... but even though I'm still here and its expensive, I wouldn't even dream of not finishing.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

I wouldn't say the culture is different in Canada than the US when it comes to getting and education for the most part. I know that if I ever even think about not finishing college my parents would murder me and bury me in the back yard. And I know thats very much how it is with everybody I know.. I'm still in college because I found that I like a lot of things and I've had many majors and my girlfriend is mad at me for still being here and wished I had graduated on time... but even though I'm still here and its expensive, I wouldn't even dream of not finishing.

I think what most people have been talking about in terms of film school is a post-grad program that's narrowly focused on film-making, rather than a broader undergrad degree, which I don't think anyone could argue isn't highly valuable.

 

[Brandon J. Garcia]

Shoot a documentary about yourself and your struggles trying to get a job as a $100/day DoP.

ha.ha.har.

 

[Timur Civan]

I have buddies that live in LA for about that. They live in a 2 bedroom apartment, with 2 guys to a room. They eat horrible food (mostly instant macaroni), and walk most places besides when driving to work (production assistant jobs that literally pay 250 a week for 60 hours of work).

If you somehow manage to not have to pay for your car insurance and health insurance, LA can be cheap to live in. However I had a Cartoni F102 stolen out of one of my buddy's cars in Hollywood, so that pushed my bills up last year when I replaced it. :\

I'm a recent transplant here. It's surprisingly affordable--food especially.

$15K = 15,000 taco's in LA.

This thread is making me nostalgic... Also a little hungry.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Jeez.... In NY you need to make like $3500 a month just to cover bills.....

 

[Matt W.]

I have friends in NYC (Brooklyn) getting by on around $1000 a month. Crazy as that seems. Not sure their housing situations are entirely legal or that they actually eat food, though. Tough time to be a recent college grad, not so much work.

Personally, I've decided to go for an MFA. When I'm in that much debt I won't even have the luxury of considering ridiculous career paths like this one! After that probably going to try and find work as a grip in LA.

The Mexican food in LA is amazing, but the pizza...not so much. You can't have it all.

 

[Timur Civan]

I wish the mexican was better in NY.

But back to the topic, if you want to start as a DP, apprenticeship is everything in my opinion. I learned so much being a bestboy, and 1st AC. it pays, and its a education/contacts netweork in one.

 

[Matt W.]

I've yet to find a city with good burritos and good pizza. I've found plenty of cities with neither.

I'm going back to school partially because I caught the directing bug, and want to indulge that while it's still feasible. Want to squash any bad habits in my questionable lighting style, too, and put a bunch of shorts shot on 16mm and 35mm (if possible) on my resume. I'm key gripping my first 35mm show this summer and hoping to go back to grip (and if I'm lucky, AC) work after graduating, though, so I will definitely keep that in mind throughout.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

Ah, the good old days - in the 90's I had to make $40,000 per month just to break even.....
I would hate to be running a full operation today.
I love working out of the house with little overhead.

 

[Tim Hole]

Maybe your mother could buy you a Red...

Was Timmy Rubensteiner for real or was it a practical joke. I could never work it out.

 

[Timur Civan]

Was Timmy Rubensteiner for real or was it a practical joke. I could never work it out.

Its a facebook page....

its called "Mommy bought me a red and now im a DP"

Its just some guys making some mockumentary stuff.