Workflow to prep for finishing in Scratch

[liquidigital]

Lucas or anyone (who knows) if you're available, what would be the workflow for prepping proxy files coming from FCP to conform and finish in Scratch. Are they assembled/conformed by Redcine first? Then imported by Scratch? Sorry for my misunderstanding, just trying to make heads or tails of things.
Thanks guys!

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Lucas or anyone (who knows) if you're available, what would be the workflow for prepping proxy files coming from FCP to conform and finish in Scratch. Are they assembled/conformed by Redcine first? Then imported by Scratch? Sorry for my misunderstanding, just trying to make heads or tails of things.
Thanks guys!

Pretty simple...

1) Finish edit in FCP, and export EDL.

2) Import R3D files into SCRATCH.

3) Conform.

SCRATCH natively reads R3D files and all the timecode/tapeID metadata in those files. So as long as QT files for FCP are created correctly with appropriate metadata from R3D files, then the conform follows the "normal" rules of a video-style online, with TapeID and Timecode used as the clip and time identifiers.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[liquidigital]

Thanks Lucas

 

[Joe VanDalsem]

do you need the redcode quicktime.component installed for R3D files to work in scratch?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

do you need the redcode quicktime.component installed for R3D files to work in scratch?

No. SCRATCH reads R3D files without any other layer involved.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Joe VanDalsem]

Thanks lucas. That's what I thought. This is Joe @ paradise btw. I'll be around the boards from now on. Which companies do you use to build the pc's that run scratch? Just asking because I want to look into a few different options.

No. SCRATCH reads R3D files without any other layer involved.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Thanks lucas. That's what I thought. This is Joe @ paradise btw. I'll be around the boards from now on. Which companies do you use to build the pc's that run scratch? Just asking because I want to look into a few different options.

Cool - Hi Joe!

We use a couple of different companies. Gimme a call, or drop me a line offlist.

Lucas

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks lucas. That's what I thought. This is Joe @ paradise btw. I'll be around the boards from now on. Which companies do you use to build the pc's that run scratch? Just asking because I want to look into a few different options.

Supported workstations:

LINK >>>

 

[Chris Kenny]

Pretty simple...

1) Finish edit in FCP, and export EDL.

2) Import R3D files into SCRATCH.

3) Conform.

This is way too simple. If you expect people to take your product seriously, I'm afraid you'll have to make this process more complex. And if you make it require $250K worth of specialty hardware, people will be really impressed with you.

(Seriously, this is awesome. Wish we could afford your stuff.)

 

[laguun]

No. SCRATCH reads R3D files without any other layer involved.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.

LA, CA, USA

disclaimers:
a) not in 4k.
b) scratch is ~30-50.000 USE (unless you buy a 15.000 disk array)
c) scatch reddecode isn´t realtime in 2k
d) you need togo to windows for the "scatch" software. however there are alternatives.


etc.

luki, i will strictly recommend to have any discussions with me in PM.

 

[laguun]

This is way too simple. If you expect people to take your product seriously, I'm afraid you'll have to make this process more complex. And if you make it require $250K worth of specialty hardware, people will be really impressed with you.

(Seriously, this is awesome. Wish we could afford your stuff.)

24 Terrabytes
on STA < 5.000.

speegrade on set 399$.

 

[Joe VanDalsem]

disclaimers:
a) not in 4k.
b) scratch is ~30-50.000 USE (unless you buy a 15.000 disk array)
c) scatch reddecode isn´t realtime in 2k
d) you need togo to windows for the "scatch" software. however there are alternatives.


etc.

luki, i will strictly recommend to have any discussions with me in PM.

So really to do a 4k online you need to export DPX's or TIFF's from red alert of all the cuts in your edit if you want to do a full 4k online. Correct?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

disclaimers:
a) not in 4k.

The 4K extraction from the wavelet does not play back in realtime - which is what I assume you are talking about. But the conform (which is what we're talking about) is absolutely at 4K using the metadata from the original R3D files.

Also, even when you are using a 2K or 1K pull from the wavelet, it is being sized in realtime to 4096x2048, so yes - it is always at 4K. The only thing that you're talking about is realtime playback from the 4K extraction of the wavelet at 4K resolution.

Don't make sweeping statements. Be specific.

b) scratch is ~30-50.000 USE (unless you buy a 15.000 disk array)

It completely depends on what you are buying. SCRATCH can cost that much, yes... but for a conform system, it can cost a lot less. And for a dailies and review system - dramatically less.

c) scatch reddecode isn´t realtime in 2k

In platback, this is correct. Not yet. Right now, it's at about 20fps.

d) you need togo to windows for the "scatch" software. however there are alternatives.

Yes, you do. And right now, Final Cut is the only other system that supports R3D natively. What other alternatives are you talking about for R3D? Since this is a subject specifically about "Workflow to prep for finishing in SCRATCH."

luki, i will strictly recommend to have any discussions with me in PM.

Laguun, I appreciate you playing Devils' Advocate. It is needed in any forum. But please get your facts straight before you start posting. Or at least be very clear about what you are saying. You are not a SCRATCH artist, and you are making somewhat arbitrary statements about software usability. You are not an ASSIMILATE employee, and you are making pricing statements without knowing at all what you're talking about.

If you want to extol another platform's virtues, go ahead. Maybe a thread called "Workflow to prep for finishing in SCRATCH" is not the approrpriate place?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA.

 

[laguun]

So really to do a 4k online you need to export DPX's or TIFF's from red alert of all the cuts in your edit if you want to do a full 4k online. Correct?

yes.
to edit at the red quality, you have to use dvs clipster, quantel iQ/pablo or baselight. Red doesn´´ support the efforts of those manufacturers, they want to block them it seems.

tred doesn´t support any of these native as of yet, and it seems that this is intentional.

within the mid-level DI systems, as mystika, matrix/chrome, lustre, scratch, speedgrade etc, you will 4k -render- output. but you won´t see 4k in realtime. if shot at day, and when noise or cinematic presentation isn´t an issue -or- when your flic is aimed at TV, then its easy going.

but -i hate to say it- there are rumors that read closed a deal and won´t support the existing 4k editing/di/vfx solutions as clipster,iq. baselight etc. but will focus on 2k systems as Final Cut and Scatch. Ok for commercial, shortform, highly problematic for any existing DI/VFX pipeline. That will certainly generate some press.

BTW: Don´t shoot the messenger.

scratch however saves you the ~5000€ for the 24 Terrabyte diskaarray, which you will need to go uncompressed longform. An Arcea 24 port raidcontoller and 24 * 1 Terrabyte disks will be, in raid 6, probably the common workaround - and a lot cheaper than the alternative.

We will probably go the route with lots of terrabytes, as it is not foreseeable when red will support discreet lustre, davinci, poogle, dvs clipster/hydra/pronto, SGO mystika, matrix chrome, iridas speedgrade, quantel iQ/pablo, avid, adobe, nucoda etc as they seem to prefer to have a closed fileformat with one 2k system as of now.

that will probably change soon.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

So really to do a 4k online you need to export DPX's or TIFF's from red alert of all the cuts in your edit if you want to do a full 4k online. Correct?

Joe, it depends.

For the 4K conform - just do it off the R3D files, and use 1K or 2K for playback, and split it against the offline reference.

For Color, there are several ways to go about it:

1) Color at 1K or 2K, and spot check at 4K. Switching between those wavelet extractions is a realtime process.

2) Color at 4K. Render a shot at a time at 4K (a one-button push from the SCRATCH CONstruct) and then playback in realtime

3) Conform in SCRATCH and export DPX frames for another coloring system,

But you can absolutely do a 4K finish and color correction in SCRATCH at 4K without having to go anywhere else (unless you want to because of preference.)

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

24 Terrabytes
on STA < 5.000.

speegrade on set 399$.

Speedgrade Onset is not a conforming tool or a 4K Finishing tool. It works on still frames only, has no conforming functionality, and does not support R3D.

There is a reason that Speedgrade Onset is US$399, and SpeedgradeDI is US$40000.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Lucas Wilson]

yes. to edit at the red quality, you have to use dvs clipster, quantel iQ/pablo or baselight. Red doesn´´ support the efforts of those manufacturers, they want to block them it seems.

Laguun, you seem to refuse to listen to facts repeated to you over and over. SCRATCH ran operate at full 4K RGB resolution in realtime. We have customers doing it on a regular basis. If you don't believe me and want to talk to one of them, I'd be happy to arrange it. Contact me offlist.

If you want to view at 4K pixel-to-pixel with a projector, then you do need one of the systems you list above, along with a Sony SXRD. So a total price of over US$500K for any one of those setups. Hardly a democratizing approach.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA< USA

 

[laguun]

The 4K extraction from the wavelet does not play back in realtime - which is what I assume you are talking about. But the conform (which is what we're talking about) is absolutely at 4K using the metadata from the original R3D files.

Also, even when you are using a 2K or 1K pull from the wavelet, it is being sized in realtime to 4096x2048, so yes - it is always at 4K. The only thing that you're talking about is realtime playback from the 4K extraction of the wavelet at 4K resolution.

Don't make sweeping statements. Be specific.

ok.

here we go.
DVS clipster plays back 4k in realtime. uncompressed. any nvidia graic-card solution doesnt do that, including the software of the company you are working for. Besides DVS there are several oher manufacturers who offer this level of functionality, and it is cruicial to have an 8 * HD-SDI output. Any Quadro Nvidia basing solution in the midrange, as scratch, lustre, speedgrade, mystika, chrome, nucoda etc, is msissing this funcionality.

It completely depends on what you are buying. SCRATCH can cost that much, yes... but for a conform system, it can cost a lot less. And for a dailies and review system - dramatically less.

as assimilate still goes on with the "prices are complicated! customers don´t understand what they buy! we will find the way they want" - sales technique, i want to point out thant any investment over 10.000 in DI will be lost as soon the desktop offerings (Apple?) annex the market. There are offerings in the $$$$ space which aren´t inferior to the $$.$$$ space. I strictly recommend to any potential buyer to think twice and triple about this situation.

We will .probably- buy ~ 50 Terrabytes in Raid. 2 DI Stations. That will cost less than -one- CD-ROM license of the oldschool manufacturers. We will offer the DI services integrated with editing this December/January and i highly welcome any competition who needs to earn back more than $$$$.

In platback, this is correct. Not yet. Right now, it's at about 20fps.

4k playback is 23.97, 24, 25 as well as 48, but not ~20.
A System playing back these frequencies in realtime, as DVS clipster is about the same price as an nucoda, discreet, assimilate etc.. CD-ROM, but integrates highly sophisticated hardware.

Yes, you do. And right now, Final Cut is the only other system that supports R3D natively. What other alternatives are you talking about for R3D? Since this is a subject specifically about "Workflow to prep for finishing in SCRATCH."

I am talking about uncompressed.
About cineform.
About -any- open solution.

Laguun, I appreciate you playing Devils' Advocate. It is needed in any forum. But please get your facts straight before you start posting. Or at least be very clear about what you are saying. You are not a SCRATCH artist, and you are making somewhat arbitrary statements about software usability. You are not an ASSIMILATE employee, and you are making pricing statements without knowing at all what you're talking about.

Luki, i am a potential customer, which besides nachos fair offerings now is getting a slight little bit alienated by the comments of a vendor.

I have to make the decision which additional DI system(s) i will implement in my company.

scratch is a fine system, but as you know, you don´t offer list prices, and i didn´t appreciate the fact that i have been offered prices from 30 to 50K from different sales people for a scratch CD-Rom.

If you accuse me of not knowing what i am taking about, i will not go to customer relationship 101, but indeed point out that i usually make a quite educated decision when i am investing $$.$$$ or $$$.$$$. I additionally could remark some more facts about shortcomings or advantages of the systems in the marketplace.

I did so with my first 35mm camera, i did so with my first cinealta cam, my first hdcam-vtr, my first DI system and i suppose that we both agree that betting on red was also a pretty reflected business decision.

therefore, i would recommend two ideas.
we had two days ago our first shot on red - on Arri masterprimes, Angenieux zoom lenses, all rented out from ludwig (the lenses), arri (the master primes) and camelot (the camera) - i suppose that was the first German testshot, and there were some isues in the camera.

I need to buy two additional DI seats within the next 8 months. And, to be honest, you as one of the representatives of one of the possible vendors are -not- giving us the impression to be, lets say, accurate and polite. I am not in the position to give you recommendations, but i can clearly say that i am sharing these posts, beginning with the one when you recommended me to apply at assimilate sales, with several clients.

Therefore, we have mystika, chrome and speedgrade systems coming, do -exactly- understand that speedgrade is running under Apple OSX,what kind of converters are needed to have an HD-SDI Di ouput within OSX etc.

And we do know the prices we will have to pay for the software license to equip our quadcore, sata-raid using nvidia quadro workstations with an DI solution. Be it OSX (speedgrade), linux (mystika) or windows (chrome).

If you want to extol another platform's virtues, go ahead. Maybe a thread called "Workflow to prep for finishing in SCRATCH" is not the approrpriate place?

There are many, most interesting months ahead. And i will point out my opinion, investments strategy and results. Basically, that is the purpose of internet forums.



Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA.[/QUOTE]

 

[laguun]

Laguun, you seem to refuse to listen to facts repeated to you over and over. SCRATCH ran operate at full 4K RGB resolution in realtime. We have customers doing it on a regular basis. If you don't believe me and want to talk to one of them, I'd be happy to arrange it. Contact me offlist.

If you want to view at 4K pixel-to-pixel with a projector, then you do need one of the systems you list above, along with a Sony SXRD. So a total price of over US$500K for any one of those setups. Hardly a democratizing approach.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA< USA

80-90.000 for an srx05 4k projector and 50-90.000 for an DVS clipster dont total for 500.000 in my math. Especially if one takes out the SRX and adds an ~5k$ 4k LCD instead.

Furthermore, it is imporatant to point out that scatch (and speedgrade, and mystika and etc) don´t have a 4k display and therefore it might be considered inaccurate to call these systems 4k realtime capable - especially as they don´t even do 2k in realtime when using bayer-basing streams. As Arri D20, Weisscam, Phantom 65 or in the case of scratch, the red one.

I already proposed to continue the talk off list, but when you address me in public in the forums, i suppose i should answer.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

ok.
here we go.
DVS clipster plays back 4k in realtime. uncompressed. any nvidia graic-card solution doesnt do that, including the software of the company you are working for.

You are mixing two things - 4K playback in realtime, and 4K display at pixel-for-pixel. You are incorrect that the NVidia cards can't do 4K in realtime. They do. We have customers doing it every day. Whoever told you this or wherever you got this information - it is just factually incorrect. This is not a theoretical discussion. It's just wrong.

For 4K Playback out to a 4K projector, you are correct. NVidia doesn't do that... in realtime. But, the Quadroplex ModelIII can successfully feed a Sony SXRD in 4K. I've done it with SCRATCH. But it can't support realtime playback.

Besides DVS there are several oher manufacturers who offer this level of functionality, and it is cruicial to have an 8 * HD-SDI output.

For you, perhaps. Several major post-production facilities with the money to buy whatever they want disagree. R!OT uses a 4K Resolve with a BarcoDP90. Modern Glendale uses an iQ Pablo and a Resolve with a Christie2K. Fotokem uses an iQ Pablo with a Christie2K. EFilm uses Lustre with Barcos. Technicolor uses Resolves and Lustres with Christies and Barcos. For you, perhaps this is essential. But for many others who are doing 4K post-production, it is not.

as assimilate still goes on with the "prices are complicated! customers don´t understand what they buy! we will find the way they want" - sales technique, i want to point out thant any investment over 10.000 in DI will be lost as soon the desktop offerings (Apple?) annex the market. There are offerings in the $$$$ space which aren´t inferior to the $$.$$$ space. I strictly recommend to any potential buyer to think twice and triple about this situation.

Prices are not complicated. And you still have not emailed me offlist - as dozens of people from this forum have, and none have complained about the pricing structures I have given them. They are clear in what they do and how they do it. So I assume if 10K is your limit, then Speedgrade is also out of the running for you, since the HD version doesn't output at 2K or 4K, doesn't display at 2K and 4K, and doesn't play realtime at 2K or 4K. And the DI version is 40.000.

scratch is a fine system, but as you know, you don´t offer list prices, and i didn´t appreciate the fact that i have been offered prices from 30 to 50K from different sales people for a scratch CD-Rom.

We do have list prices. And different prices reflect different modular approaches. And it is not *just* a CD-ROM. That's sort of like saying that for a Picasso, you're paying a million dollars for *just* a canvas. It's not the canvas, it's what is in it and what is on it, and the work and talent it represents.

I need to buy two additional DI seats within the next 8 months. And, to be honest, you as one of the representatives of one of the possible vendors are -not- giving us the impression to be, lets say, accurate and polite. I am not in the position to give you recommendations, but i can clearly say that i am sharing these posts, beginning with the one when you recommended me to apply at assimilate sales, with several clients.

Well, I guess I can't win 'em all. I have a strong personality and strong opinions, but I am pretty rigid about my facts. And I know a lot about Speedgrade and SCRATCH. I've been living with both of those systems for years now. And when you say things that clearly aren't true, I can't help myself. Please share any comments you would like. I don't write things in public I am not comfortable with everybody reading.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc,
LA, CA, USA