WorkFlow Problems!!

[Dominick Sivilli]

1. What is a DPX?


2. Where can I find the program Clip Finder?


3. What's the difference between EDL and XML?


4. I am looking into buying a computer and was how many gigs of RAM are best plus processor in the ballpark of $1,500 for MAC. Any suggestions? Is it worth getting the RED rocket?


5. Organization question -- What's the best way to organize RED footage or files before color grading? Can the files be re-named as shown on the slate or would that screw up the files or connections to the proxies? If not, what's the best way of doing it?


6. After organizing, how should we edit the proxies on a final cut timeline?


7. We did edit proxies without organizing and it was a mess. Then we output to XML, imported into Red Cine X, build 351, color graded to our liking, but we are lost on how to export to a full quality sequence. Do we export in RED Cine as one timeline and then drop it into Final Cut into the timeline with the Proxies? Or is there a way to relink the proxies with the color graded raw files for a full quality export? This is where we are lost.


8. It also seems when editing proxies to XML, certain effects don't apply -- for example, widescreen, vignette, and slow-mo. How do we make these effects possible when we color grade on XML?


9. If we do export to a pro-res first, how do we relink those to the raw files for a color grade later?

 

[ericyoung]

1) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DPX

2) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Clipfinder

3) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=EDL+XML+difference

4) When pushing anything with more resolution than Standard Definition MiniDV, you would be wise to max out the RAM for whatever computer you are buying. If you have a need to transcode Red R3D files to any other video format for editing or hand off to a client, rather than editing natively in Premiere Pro or Avid or another Red native capable NLE, then the Red Rocket will save you A LOT of time.

5) It's best to leave all the rushes file and folder names the same when importing into your NLE. You can rename within your NLE for convenience, or just enter the slate information in another field of the metadata.

6) 7) 8) 9) Suggest you try reading up on Final Cut Pro/Apple Workflow in this forum and other forums.

 

[Dominick Sivilli]

Thanks Eric!

 

[Ben Brainerd]

Is it worth getting the RED rocket?

If you're doing a lot of RED work, the Rocket will be a lifesaver. Depends on what you're doing, though.

5. Organization question -- What's the best way to organize RED footage or files before color grading? Can the files be re-named as shown on the slate or would that screw up the files or connections to the proxies? If not, what's the best way of doing it?

Never, EVER, EVER rename your files. You'll cause yourself more trouble than any time you'll save. The "standard" procedure is to just dump each card into its own directory, which you can label as suits you. Most folks just use "Card #1", etc. But you can date them, or whatever you like. But don't rename the files.

You can rename the footage in your NLE to your heart's content. Just don't change the filenames.

6. After organizing, how should we edit the proxies on a final cut timeline?

Well, in my opinion you're missing a step. Editing with the camera proxies is (despite its inclusion in the whitepaper) not a recommended workflow. You'll have less trouble if you render prores proxies from RedCine-X or Clipfinder (This is where the Rocket helps) and editing those.

7. We did edit proxies without organizing and it was a mess. Then we output to XML, imported into Red Cine X, build 351, color graded to our liking, but we are lost on how to export to a full quality sequence. Do we export in RED Cine as one timeline and then drop it into Final Cut into the timeline with the Proxies? Or is there a way to relink the proxies with the color graded raw files for a full quality export? This is where we are lost.

This is really a matter of preference. Mine is to grade in Color or DaVinci rather than RC-X, but if you want to grade in RC-X, you've got a number of options. Given your later question (I'll get to it in a sec) you're probably better off rendering your graded files as individual ProRes files, then using Clipfinder to reconform your XML to the rendered files, taking it back into FCP for final output.

8. It also seems when editing proxies to XML, certain effects don't apply -- for example, widescreen, vignette, and slow-mo. How do we make these effects possible when we color grade on XML?

You don't. The FX may be included in the XML, but RC-X doesn't support them. Which is why I suggest rendering individual ProRes masters and conforming in FCP, so you can apply your FX to the final footage.

9. If we do export to a pro-res first, how do we relink those to the raw files for a color grade later?

Clipfinder. Either the free version, if you want to grade in Color, or the paid version if you want to grade in RC-X. There are other ways, but clipfinder is by far the easiest and simplest.

 

[paulherrin]

It seems as though your current expertise lies elsewhere. I would consider hiring some assistance for now, and if you are trying to get in to this field of work, training is required.

The RED has probably the simplest professional digital post-workflow I've ever seen, but it is a professional workflow and a professional tool - some basic understanding of post-production is probably a prerequisite.

But please feel free to ask these questions and learn, there are some really knowledgeable and generous guys around here who are happy and willing to answer them all. I only worry, with these types of questions, that you're currently ill equipped to handle the task without further instruction.

Kind of like when you get a question about the DVD player from your parents, you can talk them through getting a disc to play, and the best they can do is write down exact notes - but you know they're never going to be able to do anything more advanced with it on their own. It's the same here, you have to have the experience and the discipline that comes with it in order to really understand and use a thing in a creative way.

Best of luck.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Dominick, "Problems" are just "opportunities to learn". On the upside, you are going to be the newest Red Workflow Expert!

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

4. I am looking into buying a computer and was how many gigs of RAM are best plus processor in the ballpark of $1,500 for MAC. Any suggestions? Is it worth getting the RED rocket?

Maybe I misunderstand... but I'd expect to spend $6500 for a Mac for serious editing and post as a starting place.

$1500 is WAY off the mark.

I'd buy the current 8-core Mac Pro with 8GB of RAM from Apple ($3649) Its not the fastest... but its the sweet spot for price performance. (Arguably the 6 core 3.33GHz is very competitive in price performance.)

(Normally I do not recommend Apple's memory upgrades, but in this case ordering the upgrade opens up 2 slots as well as buying more RAM- so its worth it.)

I'd add Crucial's 8GB RAM Kit (2 4GB sticks) for just under $200.

To that I'd add an i/o card. For economy and features I'd point you at a BlackMagic Design DeckLink Extreme 3D... that's $995 MSRP

That's already $4844

This ignores adding hard drives. (which I also recommend you don't do through the Apple store.)

If you want to work with RED footage in anything near real time then I recommend upgrading the graphics card to the fastest available Nvidia card, and using Premiere Pro CS5 as your NLE.

Alternatively, a Rocket is a good idea.

The fastest current Nvidia Card is the Quadro 4000, at around $900. You can get most of the performance of that card in the GTX 285, which runs about $500 (on Amazon)

All this ignores the cost of software.

Final Cut Studio is $1300 or so.

Adobe Production Premium CS5 is $1700 or so.

So like I said... $1500 seems way off the mark for a Mac for post work.

 

[Steven James Eaton]

So like I said... $1500 seems way off the mark for a Mac for post work.

Well said, not counting extra storage, the least I was able to get for what I needed (a RED capable PC with CS5) was closer to 6k.

 

[Ben Brainerd]

The RED has probably the simplest professional digital post-workflow I've ever seen, but it is a professional workflow and a professional tool - some basic understanding of post-production is probably a prerequisite.

Paul pretty much nailed it with this. And it applies to the computer purchase too. RED is pro-level and requires pro-level hardware. Is it possible to get a machine the will work with RED footage for $1500? Yes. You could go ahead and buy a 13" Macbook Pro, the small iMac or a Mac Mini. Will it be *GOOD* at working with RED footage? No. You *might* be able to find an older Mac Pro on Ebay for under $2000, but is it really worth it? You'll probably end up with the same performance as one of the aforementioned machines. Plus the fact that, hardware aside, the *software* breaks your stated budget.

 

[paulherrin]

there are other options for hardware (i.e. "hackintosh" or windows)... i build all of my computers, and they are just as good, and WAY less expensive than getting it from the apple store. there are drawbacks to that of course, and we don't need to start a whole discussion about that, I just wanted to state that there are other options to get closer to the performance you need at that price. you'll probably need some help with that if you try to go that route, don't just order a bunch of hardware and expect it to work together.

 

[Uli Plank]

Not for 1.500…

 

[Dan Hudgins]

DPX

DPX

1. What is a DPX?

DPX and DRX are not the same, DPX is a file format, DRX is a way to extend the highlights.

If you have not used DPX workflow before, be sure to check the gamma and clip points used.

The most common, maybe, DPX is 30bits image data in 32bits per pixel, with black at data value 95 and white at data value 685, and gamma at 1.7 (probably), which is known as Log or LogC (C for Cineon, which DPX was a development from, the older CIN filetype used for DI).

It is normal for the sub-range low gamma DPX to look very gray and washed out.

There are other ways to clip the data in DPX, and its possable to have them be 709 gamma 2.2 rather than Log gamma 1.7, so you need to get that clear for all steps in the workflow, since its not automatic as the DPX header is not very clear about what the image data is exactly when going from one program to another, other than the bits used. If you see too much contrast or too little or the black and white levels are off you now know why.

People use DPX because the header has fields for time and date, and for smpte time code bits, which are used by some editing programs.

TIF files can be less of a problem with the image if you just make min to max tonal range, and gamma 2.2, then you can look at the frames in just about any program and see the same thing, if the program is working right.

With DPX, you may need a monitor LUT to see the image tones looking right since the display program may need to convert the sub-range gamma 1.7 to full range gamma 2.2 to 2.4 for viewing.

Other than that, its like an upgraded BMP image file.

 

[Dominick Sivilli]

wow, You guys rock! Thanks for the feedback! Gald to be apart of a great community! Happy Holidays!

 

[Dominick Sivilli]

One more question!

It seems like I have more than one Raw(R3d file) in a foilder with only one set of Proxies linked to only one shot, any reason why this would happen?

Thanks,
Dom

 

[joe hedge]

One more question!

It seems like I have more than one Raw(R3d file) in a foilder with only one set of Proxies linked to only one shot, any reason why this would happen?

Thanks,
Dom

They are all the same take spanned across 2 GB files, notice all but the last one are 2 GB, Red uses the FAT32 format which has a 2GB file size limit